The rise of Christianity is a great puzzle. In 40 AD, there were maybe a thousand Christians. Their Messiah had just been executed, and they were on the wrong side of an intercontinental empire that had crushed all previous foes. By 400, there were forty million, and they were set to dominate the next millennium of Western history.
Imagine taking a time machine to the year 2300 AD, and everyone is Scientologist. The United States is >99% Scientologist. So is Latin America and most of Europe. The Middle East follows some heretical pseudo-Scientology that thinks L Ron Hubbard was a great prophet, but maybe not the greatest prophet.
This can only begin to capture how surprised the early Imperial Romans would be to learn of the triumph of Christianity. At least Scientology has a lot of money and a cut-throat recruitment arm! At least they fight back when you persecute them! At least they seem to be in the game!
Rodney Stark was a sociologist of religion. He started off studying cults, and got his big break when the first missionaries of the Unification Church (“Moonies”) in the US let him tag along and observe their activities. After a long and successful career in academia, he turned his attention to the greatest cult of all and wrote The Rise Of Christianity. He spends much of it apologizing for not being a classical historian, but it’s fine - he’s obviously done his homework, and he hopes to bring a new, modern-religion-informed perspective to the ancient question.
So: how did early Christianity win?
Slowly But Steadily
Previous authorities assumed Christianity spread through giant mass conversions, maybe fueled by miracles. Partly they thought this because the Biblical Book of Acts describes some of these. But partly they thought it because - how else do you go from a thousand people to forty million people in less than 400 years?
Stark answers: steady exponential growth.
Suppose you start with 1,000 Christians in 40 AD. It’s hard to number the first few centuries’ worth of early Christians - they’re too small to leave much evidence - but by 300 AD (before Constantine!) they’re a sizeable enough fraction of the empire that some historians have tentatively suggested a 10% population share. That would be about 6 million people.
From 1,000 to 6,000,000 in 260 years implies a 40% growth rate per decade. Stark finds this plausible, because it’s the same growth rate as the Mormons, 1880 - 1980 (if you look at the Mormons’ entire history since 1830, they actually grew a little faster than the early Christians!)
Instead of being forced to attribute the Christians’ growth to miracles, we can pin down a specific growth rate and find that it falls within the range of the most successful modern cults. Indeed, if we think of this as each existing Christian having to convert 0.4 new people, on average, per decade, it starts to sound downright do-able.
Still, how did the early Christians maintain this conversion rate over so many generations?
Through The Social Graph
This is another of Stark’s findings from his work with the Moonies.
The first Moonie in America was a Korean missionary named Young Oon Kim, who arrived in 1959. Her first convert was her landlady. The next two were the landlady’s friends. Then came the landlady’s friends’ husbands and the landlady’s friends’ husbands’ co-workers. That was when Stark showed up. “At the time . . . I arrived to study them, the group had never succeeded in attracting a stranger.”
Stark theorized that “the only [people] who joined were those whose interpersonal attachments to members overbalanced their attachments to nonmembers.” I don’t think this can be literally correct - taken seriously, it implies that the second convert could have no other friends except the first, which would prevent her from spreading the religion further. But something like “your odds of converting are your number of Moonie friends, divided by your number of non-Moonie friends” seems to fit his evidence.
History confirms this story. Mohammed’s first convert was his wife, followed by his cousin, servant, and friend. Joseph Smith’s first converts were his brothers, friends, and lodgers. Indeed, in spite of the Mormons’ celebrated door-knocking campaign, their internal data shows that only one in a thousand door-knocks results in a conversion, but “when missionaries make their first contact with a person in the home of a Mormon friend or relative of that person, this results in conversion 50% of the time”. 1
This theory of social-graph-based-conversation was controversial when Stark proposed it, because if you ask cultists retrospectively, they’ll usually say they were awed by the beauty of the sacred teachings. But Stark says:
I knew better, because we had met them well before they had learned to appreciate the doctrines, before they had learned how to testify to their faith, back when they were not seeking faith at all. Indeed, we could remember when most of them regarded the religious beliefs of their new set of friends as quite odd. I recall one who told me that he was puzzled that such nice people could get so worked up about “some guy in Korea” . . . Then, one day, he got worked up about this guy too.
Through Jews And Weajoos
Jews were scattered across the Mediterranean even before the fall of the Temple. I don’t know why. We Jews tell ourselves that we left Israel only after the Romans kicked us out. But Stark cites plenty of historians who argue that no, it was well before that. Around the time of Christ, there were a million Jews in Israel and five million in the Diaspora, especially Alexandria, Antioch, Anatolia, and Rome.
What were these Jews’ spiritual lives like? Without hard evidence, Stark supposes they were marginal. Throughout history, Jews have succeeded at keeping the Law only within tight-knit communities. If you want to keep kosher, it helps to have everyone around you keeping kosher and a local kosher butcher. If you want to keep the Sabbath, it helps to have an eruv and a synagogue within walking distance. But even more than that, the Law is strange and complicated, and unless everyone around you follows it too, you are likely to slip.
Thus, when Jews were first emancipated and allowed to live among Gentiles in the 18th-19th centuries, a split emerged in the Jewish community. Those Jews who stayed in the ghettos and shtetls - or who founded new self-imposed-quasi-ghettos like Crown Heights - remained Orthodox. Those Jews who mingled with the Gentiles cast off the more difficult rules and became Reform. Only a sliver of Modern Orthodox remained in the middle, often with abysmal attrition rates.
Stark asks whether the first great intermingling of Jews and Gentiles had the same effect. While the Jews in Palestine stayed religious and laid the foundations for the Rabbinic Judaism of future centuries, the Jews in the Diaspora - did what? Presumably Hellenized into some sort of semi-assimilated proto-Reform movement. Although we have limited historical evidence about these Jews’ religious behavior, we know they spoke Greek and not Hebrew (otherwise why would they need the Septuagint?) and that many of them took Greek names.

Reform Judaism is unstable. The Law of Moses is central to the Jewish faith; relax it too much, and believers can justly wonder what’s left. In America, Reform Jews are over-represented not only among atheists and agnostics, but among every cult under the sun. 33% of American Buddhists come from a Jewish background, and even the Moonies were 30% Jewish at one point! (they’re now down to 6%)
As the Jews were assimilating into Greeks, some Greeks were assimilating into Judaism. They were impressed enough with monotheism and the Jews’ upright behavior to adopt some of the rituals, but they couldn’t take the final step and circumcise themselves. Instead, they hung around the fringes of Jewish society, admiring it from without. The Bible and the historical record call them “God-fearers”, but by analogy I can’t help but think of them as “weajoos”. These weajoos would have been easy prey for the first semi-Jewish sect to shed the circumcision requirement and explicitly pivot away from being an ethnic religion.
The Apostles and other early Christians, leaving Palestine to minister to the wider world, would have made use of existing Jewish networks and connections. They would have found themselves in the middle of the spiritually-disaffected, half-assimilated pseudo-Reform Jewish communities of the Roman world, plus their half-assimilated-the-other direction Greek hangers-on. They would have preached that Judaism was basically true, but that you can drop the restrictive Law of Moses and avoid getting circumcised. They would have sliced through the cultural angst of these in-between communities, saying that Jews could join together with Gentiles in a big friendly tent under the leadership of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Here, says Stark, were the early Christians’ first few million converts.
Because, I Regret To Inform You, The Pronatalists Are Right About Everything
We found above that the Christian population needed to grow at 40% per decade, and assumed this meant conversion. But you could also do this through a fertility advantage. If a generation lasts thirty years, and Christians have 3x more children than pagans per generation, they can get 40%/decade growth without converting anyone at all. In reality, it was probably a mix: some conversion plus some fertility advantage.
Here I start to worry that some right-wing pronatalist organization bribed Rodney Stark to abandon his usual scholarly attitude and write some kind of over-the-top pronatalist fanfic. I was waiting for the part where the eagle named MORE BIRTHS perches on the blackboard and the childfree professor was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity. Still, let’s take it at face value and see what the fanfic has to say.
By the Imperial era, Roman fertility was plummeting. Partly this was because the Romans practiced sex-selective infanticide, there were 130 men for every 100 women, and so many men would never be able to find a wife. But partly this was because the men who could find wives dragged their feet. (Male) Roman culture took it as a given that women were terrible, that you couldn’t possibly enjoy interacting with them, and that there was no reason besides duty that you would ever marry one.
In 131 BC, the Roman censor Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus2 proposed that that the senate make marriage compulsory because so many men, especially in the upper classes, preferred to stay single. Acknowledging that “we cannot have a really harmonious life with our wives”, the censor pointed out that "since “we cannot have any sort of life without them,” the long term welfare of the state must be served”… As Beryl Rawsom has reported, “one theme that recurs in Latin literature is that wives are difficult and therefore men do not care much for marriage.”
The Romans understood that this was long-term fatal for their empire, and tried all sorts of schemes to increase family formation. In the mid-first-century BC, Cicero re-proposed Metellus’ scheme to make marriage compulsory, but it failed once again. Augustus contented himself with punitive taxes and second-class citizenship for unmarried and childless couples, combined with subsidies and affirmative action for men with at least three children.
Formal and informal social pressure eventually convinced most Roman men to take wives, but no amount of love or money could make them have children. Dense cities discouraged large families, Roman children were expensive (nobles would have to spend immense effort and political favors grooming them for high positions), and (the scourge of all nobilities) too many children risked splitting the inheritance. Also, if you had a girl you’d probably just kill her (she would consume resources without continuing the family line), and half of children died before adulthood from some disease or another anyway. It was just a really bad value proposition.
Nor did the sex drive force the matter. Horny Roman men had their choice of a wide variety of male and female slaves and prostitutes - despite Augustus and his spiritual heirs’ fuming about monogamy, this was never really enforced on the male half of the population. When men did have sex with women, it was usually oral or anal sex, specifically to avoid procreation. When they did have vaginal sex, they had a wide variety of birth control methods available, including the famous silphium but also proto-condoms and spermicidal ointments. If a child was conceived despite these efforts, abortion was common albeit unsanitary (maternal death rates were extremely high, but this was not really a deal-breaker for the Roman men making the decision). If a baby was born in spite of all this, infanticide was legal and extremely common:
Far more babies were born than were allowed to live. Seneca regarded the drowning of children at birth as both reasonable and commonplace. Tacitus charged that the Jewish teaching that it is “a deadly sin to kill an unwanted child” was but another of their “sinister and revolting practices” . . . not only was the exposure of infants a common practice, it was justified by law and advocated by philosophers.”
Christians followed the opposite of all these practices.
They recommended that men love their wives, and held this as a plausible and expected outcome. This was not exactly unprecedented, but it was a dramatic reversal of Roman custom. From Ephesians 5:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church — for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery — but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
The Christians banned adultery (and, unlike the Roman bans, gave it teeth), meaning that married men who wanted sex had no choice but to go to their wives. They held that sex had to be procreative, banning anal sex, oral sex, homosexual sex, and birth control. And obviously they banned infanticide (many of these bans weren’t active decisions, but carry-overs from the movement’s Jewish roots).
Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine. This is absolutely not true. The Didache, the first Christian text outside the New Testament itself, probably dating from about 90 AD, says that “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born”. The second-century church father Athenagoras wrote:
We say that women who use drugs to bring on an abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion . . . for we regard the very foetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care . . . and [we do not] expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder.
The end result is that while pagans delayed marriage, cheated, had nonprocreative sex, used birth control, performed abortions, and committed infanticide, Christians did none of these things.
This section gave me a new appreciation for conservative Christian purity culture: it was obviously suited for the environment in which it evolved, and it’s also obvious why its founders would etch it so deeply into its memetic DNA that it’s still going strong millennia later.
But I’ll end this section with a note of caution - I’m not sure how relevant any of this is. Stark refuses to speculate on pagan vs. Christian fertility rates, but when I look up modern scholarship, they reasonably point out that pagan rates must have been around “replacement”, given that the Roman population stayed steady (or slowly increased) for hundreds of years. “Replacement” is in quotes because Romans were constantly dying of plague, warfare, fire, and a million other causes; since only a third to half of people survived to reproduce, “replacement” here is something like 4-6 children per women. This doesn’t sound like the antinatalist disaster Stark describes!
I think Stark is mostly talking about Roman elites - the group who Augustus kept pestering to have at least three children - and more broadly about the urban population. These people were constantly dying and being replaced by commoners and villagers.
Early Christianity was primarily an urban and upper-class movement (does this surprise you? Stark urges us to think of modern cults and new religions, like American Buddhism, which predominantly recruit disillusioned children of the upper classes). So perhaps it did better than its urban upper-class pagan comparison group. Still, since the urban upper-class pagans were constantly being replaced by village lower-class pagans as soon as they died out, how much, in numerical terms, can this contribute to Christianity’s growth?
A possible synthesis: if you imagine a city as having a constant population (because it’s walled, plus its hinterland can only support a certain number of non-food-producing urbanites), and villagers as replacing urbanites on a one-to-one basis as they die, then greater Christian urban fertility rates can at least contribute to the cities and upper classes becoming Christian. And once the cities and upper classes are Christian, you get Constantine, and the lower classes can be forced to comply. Remember, “pagan” originally meant “rural”!
Because Where Women Go, Men Will Follow
One thing Stark did not mention discovering in his study of cults, but which I have heard anecdotally - a lot of male cult members join because the cult has hot girls. This seems to have been a big factor in the spread of early Christianity as well.
Stark collects various forms of evidence that early Christians were predominantly women. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans greets thirty-three prominent Christians by name, of whom 15 were men and 18 women; if (as seems likely) men were more likely to become prominent than women, this near-equality at the upper ranks suggests a female predominance at the lower. A third-century inventory of property at a Christian church includes “sixteen men’s tunics and eighty-two women’s tunics”. The book quotes historian Adolf von Harnack, who says:
[Ancient sources] simply swarm with tales of how women of all ranks were converted in Rome and in the provinces; although the details of these stories are untrustworthy, they express correctly enough the general truth that Christianity was laid hold of by women in particular, and also that the percentage of Christian women, especially among the upper classes, was larger than that of men.
Why were women converted in such disproportionate numbers? Again, Stark’s sociological background serves him well: he is able to find reports of the same phenomenon in modern religions:
By examining manuscript census returns for the latter half of the nineteenth century, Bainbridge (1983) found that approximately two-third of the Shakers were female. Data on religious movements included in the 1926 census of religious bodies show that 75% of Christian Scientists were women, as were more than 60% of Theosophists, Swedenborgians, and Spiritualists. The same is true of the immense wave of Protestant conversions taking place in Latin America.
But along with a general tendency for women to convert, Stark notes that Christianity was especially attractive to women. The pagan world treated women as their husbands’ property, and not particularly well-liked property at that. The book cites the Athenian laws as typical:
The status of Athenian women was very low. Girls received little or no education. Typically, Athenian females were married at puberty and often before. Under Athenian law, a woman was classified as a child, regardless of age, and therefore was the legal property of some man at all stages of her life. Males could divorce by simply ordering a wife out of the household. Moreover, if a woman was seduced or raped, her husband was legally compelled to divorce her. If a woman wanted a divorce, she had to have her father or some other man bring her case before a judge. Finally, Athenian women could own property, but control of the property was always vested in the male to whom she “belonged”.
Meanwhile, Christian woman had relatively high status, sometimes rising to the position of deacon within a church. Christian men were ordered to treat their wives kindly, were prohibited from cheating on them, and mostly could not divorce. Christianity, unlike paganism, did not especially pressure widows to remarry (important since a remarrying widow lost all her property to her new husband). Christian women were only a third as likely as Roman women to be married off before age 13. Women noticed all these benefits and flocked to Christianity.
Aside from all of this, the Romans were practicing sex-selective infanticide, reducing their female numbers still further, and making the Christians even more proportionally female-heavy. If the Christians, like many modern cults, were 65% female, and the Romans (as some sources attest) were about 40 - 45% female, this is a pretty profound difference.
The Romans grumbled about marriage, but in the end most Roman men did want wives (if only to avoid government penalties). But 1.4 men per women - maybe even less among the upper classes - puts young men seeking wives in a difficult situation (for comparison, modern San Francisco is only 1.05 men per women, and dating is already hell). To any remotely heterosexual Roman men, the 65% female Christian community must have started looking pretty good.
Meanwhile, the Christians had the opposite problem: too many women, not enough men. There’s an obvious solution, and it sounds like the pagans and Christians had also figured it out: From 1 Peter 3:
Wives ... submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the Word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.
History records many such intermarriages, almost always ending with the conversion of the pagan husband. If you are a Christian of English descent, you may owe your religion to Queen Bertha of Kent, who convinced her husband, one of the early Anglo-Saxon kings, to take her faith.
But Ruxandro Teslo has a great post reviewing the work of historian Michele Salzman, who disagrees with all of this. Salzman has a database of 400 aristocratic Romans during the 4th century period of Christianity’s fastest growth. She finds few intermarriages, few examples of women converting their husbands, and equal (or slightly male-biased) conversion ratios. Granted, this is only a small sample from one period. But it makes us question how good our evidence really is.
Doesn’t all this hinge on one passage from Paul which, technically, named more men than women, plus one inventory of tunics which was so female-biased that it couldn’t possibly have been representative of even a very woman-heavy church? Are we sure that we can make the leap from “Christianity promised women more rights” to “Therefore, women flocked to Christianity?” Wasn’t that the same argument that pundits used last week to predict a blue wave for Kamala? Didn’t white women actually go for Trump, 53-46?
Salzman has one more concern, which is that women had so few rights in ancient Roman society that it’s hard to see how they could have converted at all. When unmarried, they were under the care of their father, who would hardly have let them go out visiting churches full of strange men. When married, they were under the care of their husband, who likewise. A typical Roman man wouldn’t have cared about his wife’s religious opinions, which is maybe why so many of our stories about intermarriages and conversions come from later periods like the Anglo-Saxons.
I don’t know enough about history to referee this dispute, except that say that I think the answer could easily have been different for each of early Romans, late Romans, Hellenized-Jewish-Romans, pagan Romans, upper-class Romans, and lower-class Romans, plus all combinations thereof.
Because Of The Testimony Of The Martyrs
The martyrs are one of the most dramatic parts of the early Christian story. Men and women would endure seemingly-unbearable tortures, continuing to praise God the whole time, sometimes in spite of Roman officials who promised to let them go free if they would just make the tiniest concession to praising Jupiter. These martyrdoms impressed their contemporaries as much as they impress us, and were a major factor driving pagans to Christianity.

Stark is writing in the 1990s, and martyrology c. 1995 does not exactly cover itself in glory. At the time of writing, the most popular theory among scholars (claims Stark) was that the martyrs were masochists. He considers this dumb and offensive theory a natural consequence of historians being reluctant to accept anything that sounds too miraculous or amazing, and there being few other hard-headed rational explanations of the martyrs’ behavior (for some reason, the obvious one - that they believed in God and Heaven - impresses neither Stark’s foils nor himself). He sets out to build an alternative theory: the martyrs were rationally seeking the approval of their community.
Martyrdom not only occurred in public, often before a large audience, but it was often the culmination of a long period of preparation during which those faced with martyrdom were the object of intense, face-to-face adulation. Consider the case of Ignatius of Antioch … Ignatius was condemned to death as a Christian. But instead of being executed in Antioch, he was sent off to Rome in the custody of ten Roman soldiers.
Thus began a long, leisurely journey during which local Christians came out to meet him all along the route, which passed through many of the more important sites of early Christianity in Asia Minor on its way to the West. At each stop Ignatius was allowed to preach to and meet with those who gathered, none of whom was in any apparent danger although their Christian identity was obvious. Moreover, his guards allowed Ignatius to write letters to many Christian congregations in cities bypassed along the way, such as Ephesus and Philadelphia … As William Schoedel remarked,
“It is no doubt as a conquering hero that Ignatius thinks of himself as he looks back on part of his journey and says that the churches who received him dealt with him not as a ‘transient traveller,’ noting that ‘even churches that do not lie on my way according to the flesh went before me city by city.’”
What Ignatius feared was not death in the arena, but that well-meaning Christians might gain him a pardon…He expected to be remembered through the ages, and compares himself to martyrs gone before him, including Paul, “in whose footsteps I wish to be found when I come to meet God.”
It soon was clear to all Christians that extraordinary fame and honor attached to martyrdom. Nothing illustrates this better than the description of the martyrdom of Polycarp, contained in a letter sent by the church in Smyrna to the church in Philomelium. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna who was burned alive in about 156. After the execution his bones were retrieved by some of his followers - an act witnessed by Roman officials, who took no action against them. The letter spoke of “his sacred flesh” and described his bones as “being of more value than precious stones and more esteemed than gold.” The letter-writer reported that the Christians in Smyrna would gather at the burial place of Polycarp’s bones every year “to celebrate with great gladness and joy the birthday of his martyrdom.” The letter concluded, “The blessed Polycarp ... to whom be glory, honour, majesty, and a throne eternal, from generation to generation. Amen.” It also included the instruction: “On receiving this, send on the letter to the more distant brethren that they may glorify the Lord who makes choice of his own servants.”
In fact, today we actually know the names of nearly all of the Christian martyrs because their contemporaries took pains that they should be remembered for their very great holiness.
I don’t know, I’m not putting too much effort into writing up this section, because it doesn’t feel like as much of a mystery as some of the others. Maybe all of this was weird in 1996. But since then, we’ve seen plenty of suicide bombers willing to die for their faith. I accept that the Christian martyrs were more impressive - a slow death in the Colosseum takes more grit than the quick detonation of an explosive vest, and dying for peace is more impressive than dying in war - but it hardly seems like as much of a leap.
Honestly, Stark’s “social approval” theory seems only slightly less objectifying than the masochism theory. Some people just have a tendency towards self-sacrifice. I know many effective altruists who, for example, deliberately let themselves be infected with malaria to help speed vaccine research. If someone told them a way that they could help the neediest people in the world by feeding themselves to lions, the lions would no doubt eat well.
Because They Survived The Plagues
However bad you imagine daily life in ancient Rome, it was worse.
Historians estimate that ancient Rome had a population density of 300 people per acre. That’s almost ten times denser than modern New York City, two thousand years before anyone invented the skyscraper3. How did they do it? By cramming people together in unbearable filth and misery:
Most people lived in tiny cubicles in multistoried tenements…”there was only one private house for every 26 blocks of apartments”. Within these tenements, the crowding was extreme - the tenants rarely had more than one room in which “entire families were herded together”. Thus, as Stambaugh tells us, privacy was “a hard thing to find”. Not only were people terribly crowded within these buildings, the streets were so narrow that if people leaned out their window they could chat with someone living across the street without having to raise their voices…
To make matters worse, Greco-Roman tenements lacked both furnaces and fireplaces. Cooking was done over wood or charcoal braziers, which were also the only source of heat; since tenements lacked chimneys, the rooms were always smoky in winter. Because windows could be “closed” only by “hanging cloths or skins blown by rain”, the tenements were sufficiently drafty to prevent frequent asphyxiation. But the drafts increased the danger of rapidly spreading fires, and “dread of fire was an obsession among rich and poor alike.”
Packer4 (1967) doubted that people could actually spend much time in quarters so cramped and squalid. Thus he concluded that the typical residents of Greco-Roman cities spent their lives mainly in public places and that the average “domicile must have served only as a place to sleep and store possessions.”
These tenements had no plumbing. Waste was eliminated by pouring it onto the street, often to the detriment of people walking underneath. Water was brought home from public wells; if you were out, you either walked back to the well or made do. The total public baths capacity of Rome was about 30,000; the total population of Rome was about a million; in practice, the upper classes used the “public” baths and the average citizen had never bathed in their life. Soap had been invented a century or two earlier but was limited to a small pool of early adopters. The cities buzzed with flies, mosquitos, and other insects. It would be eighteen hundred years before anyone invented germ theory.
Tenements were six stories high and frequently collapsed, killing everyone inside. Fires consumed the city on a regular basis, giving rise to colorful legends like Nero fiddling while Rome burnt. Police were limited, and it was understood that you would be robbed immediately if you set foot outside at nighttime.
How did people survive? Mostly they didn’t. Cities were destroyed regularly - multiple times within a single human lifetime! - then rebuilt and replenished with rural population. Stark focuses on Antioch, a Syrian city which was a center of early Christianity. During “six hundred years of intermittent Roman rule”, he finds:
It was conquered 11 times
…and burned to the ground 4 times
…and devastated by riots 6 times
There were 8 earthquakes large enough that “nearly everything was destroyed”.
…and 3 plagues large enough to kill at least a quarter of the population
…and 5 “really serious” famines
…for an average of one catastrophe per fifteen years. The Romans rebuilt the city each time because it was strategically important.
Stark focuses on one of these disasters: plague. The Roman Empire suffered two major plagues during this era: the Antonine Plague of 165 AD and the Cyprian Plague of 251 AD . He theorizes that Christians made it through these plagues much better than pagans, gaining an additional population boost.
Time for some game theory: when a plague comes, you can either defect (flee / self-isolate / hide) or cooperate (altruistically try to help nurse other victims). An individual does better by defecting, but a community does better if all its members cooperate. Stark thinks the pagans defected and the Christians cooperated.
Here is Thucydides’ description of a plague in pagan Athens (admittedly ~500 years before the time we’re studying). People quickly got an instinctive proto-knowledge of how contagion worked, after which:
[People] died with no one to look after them; indeed there were many houses in which all the inhabitants perished through lack of any attention…the bodies of the dying were heaped one on top of the other, and half-dead creatures could be seen staggering about in the streets or flocking around the fountains in their desire for water. The temples in which they took up their quarters were full of the dead bodies of people who had died inside them. For the catastrophe was so overwhelming that men, not knowing what would happen next to them, became indifferent to every rule of religion or law.
Compare the Christian writer Dionysius’s description of a plague afflicting his own community:
Most of our brother Christians showed unbounded love and loyalty, never sparing themselves and thinking only of one another. Heedless of danger, they took charge of the sick, attending to their every need and ministering to them in Christ, and with them departed this life serenely happy, for they were infected by others with the disease, drawing on themselves the sickness of their neighbors and cheerfully accepting their pains. Many, in nursing and curing others, transferred their death to themselves and died in their stead. The best of our brothers lost their lives in this manner, a number of presbyters, deacons, and laymen winning high commendation so that death in this form, the result of great piety and strong faith, seems in every way the equal of martyrdom […]
The heathen behaved in the very opposite way. At the first onset of the disease, they pushed the sufferers away and fled from their dearest, throwing them in the roads before they were dead and treated unburied corpses as dirt, hoping thereby to avert the spread and contagion of the fatal disease.
Could Dionysius be embellishing matters to make his friends look good and his enemies bad? Maybe, but:
There was compelling evidence from pagan sources that this was characteristic Christian behavior. Thus, a century later, the emperor Julian launched a campaign to institute pagan charities in an effort to match the Christians. Julian complained in a letter to the high priest of Galatia in 362 that the pagans needed to equal the virtues of Christians, for recent Christian growth was caused by their “moral character, even if pretended,” and by their “benevolence toward strangers and care for the graves of the dead”. In a letter to another priest, Julian wrote, “I think that when the poor happened to be neglected and overlooked by the priests, the impious Galileans observed this and devoted themselves to benevolence.” And he also wrote, “The impious Galileans support not only their poor, but ours as well, everyone can see that our people lack aid from us.”
Did this matter? It might have! “Modern medical experts believe that conscientious nursing without any medications could cut the mortality rate by 2/3 or even more.”
(if this sounds implausible, keep in mind that “nursing” here includes things like “bringing water from the public well to bedridden people who are too weak to go out and get it themselves”.)
Stark believes that plagues helped the Christians in multiple ways:
The obvious way: 30% of pagans died during the plague, but only 10% of Christians, making Christians proportionally more of the population.
Altering the social graph. Remember, Stark believes that you convert to Christianity after your Christian friends outnumber your pagan friends. If all your pagan friends die, and none of your Christian friends do, this suddenly gets much easier!
Moral testimony: pagans saw their priests and institutions fail the moral test of helping others, while the Christians succeeded.
Even more direct moral testimony: many Christians nursed and helped their pagan neighbors; if you owed your life to the Christians, and all your pagan friends who could judge you were dead, it would be hard not to convert.
Supernatural testimony: if you didn’t understand the game theoretic logic above, then dramatically higher Christian survival rates might seem like God’s favor. Stark additionally speculates that since Christians didn’t flee the disease, they got it much earlier, therefore getting immunity much earlier and allowing them to walk through hospital corridors full of plague victims with apparent miraculous invincibility.
Search for meaning. In some cities, 50% of the population died. The survivors must have been shell-shocked and looking for some sort of meaning behind it all. Paganism had nothing for them - “sorry, we don’t do that kind of thing, would you like to hear another story about Zeus raping a woman and turning her into an animal?” Christians, who had wise words about how God tests the faithful and sometimes brings people to Heaven before their time, must have been a vastly superior alternative.
Putting all these factors together, Stark suggests that the Christian : pagan ratio at the end of a plague could have been almost twice what it was at the beginning.
He doesn’t do a similar analysis for all the other disasters that regularly afflicted a Roman city - the wars, earthquakes, fires, etc - but one can see how the same logic might apply.
Because Jesus Is Lord
Are we allowed to consider this one?
Stark thinks of himself as attacking a scholarly consensus that you’re “not allowed” to consider the content of a religion when speculating about its growth.
This is a little ironic, because to us non-scholars, he himself seems pretty careful not to talk about content, or to talk about it only indirectly. It’s true that the content of Christianity includes opposition to birth control, and rights for women, and helping others during plague. But what about the content content? In his last chapter, Stark relaxes this self-imposed restriction and starts talking about Christ.
Paganism was framed as a business relationship with the gods. You performed the rites and sacrifices, they gave you supernatural aid. You didn’t have to like them any more than you liked your supply chain for any other commodity. They certainly didn’t like you! At its absolute most touchy-feely, paganism might posit a “special relationship” between a god and a city, like Athena and Athens. But even this maxxed out at the sort of relationship between a shopkeeper and a favorite recurring customer who he always remembered to greet by name.
Judaism did better. God has a sort of love-hate relationship with His people Israel, but at least there are clearly strong emotions involved. Still, Stark thinks it was Christianity that really pioneered the idea that God loves individuals. From that, everything else flows. You should love your fellow man (and nurse him during plague). You should love your children (and not commit infanticide or abortion). You should love God back (and be willing to die a martyr for Him). From God’s love flows naturally the promise of Heaven (instead of the shadowy semi-naturally-forming underworlds of the Greek and early Jews). Pagan priests were people who were skilled at the relevant rituals; Christian bishops/priests/deacons were people who loved God especially much. Aside from all the individual ways that Christian love provided an advantage, Stark thinks that paganism just couldn’t compete.
He flirts with the idea that Christianity, in some sense, invented goodness. Here’s the last page of the book:
Perhaps above all else, Christianity brought a new conception of humanity to a world saturated with capricious cruelty and the vicarious love of death. Consider the account of the martyrdom of Perpetua. Here we learn the details of the long ordeal and gruesome death suffered by this tiny band of resolute Christians as they were attacked by wild beasts in front of a delighted crowd assembled in the arena. But we also learn that had the Christians all given in to the demand to sacrifice to the emperor, and thereby been spared, someone else would have been thrown to the animals. After all, these were games held in honor of the birthday of the emperor's young son. And whenever there were games, people had to die. Dozens of them, sometimes hundreds.
Unlike the gladiators, who were often paid volunteers, those thrown to the wild animals were frequently condemned criminals, of whom it might be argued that they had earned their fates. But the issue here is not capital punishment, not even very cruel forms of capital punishment. The issue is spectacle-- or the throngs in the stadia, watching people torn and devoured by beasts or killed in armed combat was the ultimate spectator sport, worthy of a boy's birthday treat. It is difficult to comprehend the emotional life of such people.
In any event, Christians condemned both the cruelties and the spectators. Thou shalt not kill, as Tertullian reminded his readers. And, as they gained ascendancy, Christians prohibited such "games." More important, Christians effectively promulgated a moral vision utterly incompatible with the casual cruelty of pagan custom.
Finally, what Christianity gave to its converts was nothing less than their humanity. In this sense virtue was its own reward.
I appreciate this last chapter, because I’m not sure how much I buy the preceding ones. The first one, about exponential growth, is great, and it clarifies things a lot. But I could take or leave the rest.
The chapter about women doesn’t seem to be true, at least according to Salzman’s research. The one about fertility requires a lot of epicycles about the role of cities. The one about plague can at best explain a 4x increase in the Christian population (out of the overall 60,000x increase that needs explaining). The Jews can at best explain the first five million converts (leaving 35 million more to explain). These are each fascinating windows into the classical world. But they’re such small bites off of the overall mystery that it seems almost pointless to include them: if Christianity could increase 15,000x without the plagues, it hardly seems worth fighting to explain that last 4x increase.
All of this is compounded by the fact that Christianity spread equally gloriously in times and places without any of these factors. The first Christian missionary reached Scandinavia in 710 - by the twelfth century, the whole region was Christian. This is about the same timeline as Rome - but Scandinavian fertility was fine, Scandinavian women already had a decent number of rights, and there were no plagues. What about Germany? Britain? Ireland? Eastern Europe? Russia? Korea? Each of these places had their own idiosyncracies, each benefited from the knowledge that Christianity was already a great religion believed by other regional powers - but each did Christianize, as surely as Rome did. This doesn’t seem predestined. An observer in 600 AD would no more consider it inevitable that Norway would Christianize by 1100 than a modern observer would find it inevitable that Saudi Arabia will Christianize by 2500.
Likewise, the comparison of Christianity’s growth rate to that of Mormonism raises as many questions as it answers. Why is Mormonism so fast-growing? Probably not something something the Jews, or something something plagues. So why do we need to posit that for Christians? Sometimes religions just grow really fast. Why? Probably they’re good religions somehow.
The impression I get from many parts of this book is that the early Christians were closer to morally perfect (from a virtue ethics point of view) than any other historical group I can think of. It can’t be a coincidence that they were also among the most successful. And the few Mormons I’ve met were also exceptionally nice (even though in theory their religion is no more based on love than traditional Christianity).
Stark kind of tries to account for this. He says that religions spread through the social graph, so the friendlier you are, the better you do. But also, you want your religion to be a tight-knit community, and you definitely don’t want your members making so many heathen friends that they deconvert. Different religions find different places along the tradeoff curve. Classic cults (like Scientology) restrict members’ external connections, successfully gaining tight-knit-ness and protecting themselves against deconversion at the cost of curtailing their growth opportunities. Social movements like environmentalism are diffuse enough that everyone knows an environmentalist, but so loose-knit that they’re barely even a movement at all, and environmentalists frequently forget about the cause and go do something else. Somehow early Christianity (and Mormonism) found the exact sweet spot.
Now we can maybe reframe the “virtue and love” advantage. Because Christians were so good, they could interact with pagans without feeling any temptation to leave the faith (Christians were just better to know and have around than pagans). Because they were so kind, they could make friends and social connections quickly. Because they loved one another so deeply, they could have tight-knit communities even in the absence of the normal cultic ban on communicating with outsiders.
Is this all there is? I’m not sure. Also, talk about Jesus is cheap, but I still don’t understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving, in a way that so few modern Christians (even the ones who really believe in Jesus) are. I’m not making the boring liberal complaint that Christians are hypocritical and evil, although of course many are. I’m making the equally-boring-but-hopefully-less-inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy. I’m not complaining or blaming Christians for this - almost nobody is that person! I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost.
Maybe it was just selection effects? The kindest 1% of Romans became Christian, whereas later ~100% of people in Western countries were Christian and you had to operate the software on normal neurotypes? But this would imply a very different story of early Christian conversion than Stark gives us!
Or maybe it was persecution effects? Either persecution bled off the least committed X% of Christians, leaving only the hard-core believers behind - or something about proving themselves to a hostile world brought out the best in them?
How come there isn’t a carefully-selected, persecuted group of people today who are morality-maxxing and doing much better than regular society? Is it the Mormons? Seems kind of disappointing, I don’t know, I kind of expected more than that. Is it woke people? I realize this answer will be unpopular, but if you’re a white male than wokeness involves a lot of self-abnegation, which at least rhymes with Christian morality, and they sure did grow quickly. It is effective altruists? I was going to say we weren’t growing fast enough, but 40% per decade is actually a low bar and we probably clear it easily. Maybe all we have to do is keep it up another 260 years!
Or does this particular brand of morality-maxxing necessarily involve God? Stark treats God as a solution to game theory problems; everyone will do better if they cooperate, everyone wants to defect, so tell everyone that God demands cooperation and will punish defectors. Seems fair. But there are billions of people who believe in God today, and it barely seems to help them. There are so many people saying nice things about God and love, and so few morally-perfect early Christians.
The book speculated that the Antonine Plague - the one that killed 33% of Romans in 165 AD - was probably smallpox. A population’s first encounter with smallpox is inevitably horrible - just ask the Native Americans. 165 AD might have been when the disease first evolved, which explains why the Europeans suffered Native American level death rates.
Maybe we should think of early Christianity the same way - when the idea of love first struck a population without antibodies. If so, we may not see its like again.
People sometimes accuse modern social movements like environmentalism, MAGA, wokeness, rationalism, etc of being cults, but AFAIK this rule doesn’t apply to them - most people in these movements get involved by stumbling across the philosophy online and finding that it rings true. It seems to me like these modern movements are more likely to make unique and interesting claims about the world that could attract or repel certain types of people - whereas most cults are pretty similar (this one guy is God, he commands you to chant a bunch and give him money, and here’s a holy book saying we want world peace). I wonder if this should actually be a counter to “cultishness” accusations - “We can’t be a cult, cults always spread through the social graph, but we learned about this movement from a blog!”
Why does this guy have every character from the Cambridge Latin course in his name, one after another? I think the Caecilius of the course is from the same noble family as him, and they either actually reused names across families, or the course authors assumed that they did.
Another source says 200 people per acre, which is “only” 6x denser. These numbers are for New York City as a whole - if we limit ourselves to Manhattan, Rome was only 2-3x as dense.
Note nominative determinism!
Great post on a very interesting question. Some thoughts:
I think a big unaddressed question is "Why the period 100 AD - 300 AD?". Surely there was someone with a peace-and-love religion around in say 500 BC, but that religion didn't catch on. What was going on culturally in Rome that enabled the rise of Christianity? Did the Empire outgrow paganism? Did philosophy catch on and make pagan superstitions seem illogical, creating a gap that the more theological Christianity could fill? I've been told that Jews and Jewishness were in the vogue in Rome after the Jewish war, which could have helped if true. Compare with the Second Great Awakening and its causes (on which we can debate endlessly) and how it enabled Joseph Smith and mormonism. Was something similar going on in Rome?
Per the fertility argument: I've also read somewhere that Christians adopted orphans and children left to die from exposure, further bolstering their ranks.
Richard Carrier has a very contrarian (some might say "crank") take that Pagans were the moral ones actually. May be worth reading but I don't agree: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/15259 and https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/25530
>Around the time of Christ, there were a million Jews in Israel and five million in the Diaspora
I too would love more background on how the pre-war Jewish diaspora came about. Isn't its existence at odds with cities-as-population-sinks (emigrant Jews would mostly live in cities?).
Richard Carrier seems to just be making the diametricly reversed mistake because he hates the influence of Christianity on modern... America, I assume?
> Dignitas and its related ideas, even in the sense of the common worth of persons, was already a widely known pagan concept. So Christianity can’t claim to have invented it. And valuing freedom, rights, and autonomy was all a pagan idea. Invented legally by Greek and Roman constitutionalists, and developed philosophically by Aristotelians, Epicureans, and Stoics. The Enlightenment laureates who brought them back from the dead, to re-paganize Christianity with them, did so against opposition from Christian authorities. The “taboos” we inherited from Christianity are, rather, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, even racism and anti-semitism, and an unhealthy obsession with monogamy and a pathological phobia of human sexuality in general. In other words, garbage we need to get rid of, not praise or be thankful for.
Am I supposed to believe the Romans weren't sexist until they converted to Christianity? That they weren't racist, or homophobic, or transphobic? Their views on those things were very different to modern racism etc., but they certainly didn't hold to what we would consider correct or ethical. Pagan Rome was not devoid of moral reasoning, but neither was Christian Europe, and neither really lived up to the implications of their ideas (and neither do we, of course).
Yeah, basically he's cherrypicking the examples that match his preferred conclusion, as far as I can see. I still think it's good to have someone question the orthodoxy.
Above is spam...
The Romans weren't at all homophobic in the way we use the term. Fucking a guy or a boy was no problem - _being_ fucked was shameful, though (as it meant being treated like a woman).
I think it's also fair to say they weren't racist. Sure, _foreigners_ were bad and stupid (obviously!), but we have no real indication that the colour of your skin particularly mattered (a lot of emperors were dark-skinned in a way a lot of U.S. presidents weren't).
That's the kind of thing I was intentionally glossing over when I said their views were different to anything common today. If "bottoming is morally degraded" was a common view today, we would call it homophobic, it just doesn't come up in practice. Likewise the Romans divided humanity into races differently to how the KKK did, and had different theories of racial essentialism, but if those views were common today we would call them racist.
Not positive about the race/racist bit. We would probably call the Greeks massive chauvinists/ethnocentrists whose concept of the broader group nevertheless had porous borders ("Greek is he who shares our culture") and Romans obvious imperalists (um, obvious) (let's expand our empire, whack our enemies in the head, create a solitude and call it peace, and, why, only a fraction of imperial subjects are Roman citizens, though that privilege does seem to become broader over the generations, doesn't it). Not sure either would get called racist outside Twitter.
(PS. on what comes up in practice: "bottoming is morally degraded" was a common opinion in many Latin-derived cultures a generation or two ago, to the point that some otherwise progressive people had it unthinkingly.)
The blog ACOUP gets into this: https://acoup.blog/2021/07/16/collections-the-queens-latin-or-who-were-the-romans-part-iii-bigotry-and-diversity-at-rome/
Like JohanL said, the way Romans expressed bigotry was bashing foreigners as bad and stupid.
"Moreover, even once a people had come under Rome’s protection and even received Roman citizenship, that didn’t mean that other Roman elites immediately dropped their bigotry. Quite to the contrary, Romans complained bitterly about the presence of ethnic outsiders – even those with Roman citizenship – at Rome, often in extremely vile and bigoted terms."
Sounds familiar…
>let's expand our empire
The Roman Empire wasn't particularly expansionist, certainly after the first few emperors; but the Republic was.
The Greeks coined the word barbarian for foreigners who didn't speak their language, because their speech all sounded like barbarbarbarbar to the civilised ear.
(I can't promise that's not an uban legend but I've heard it said many times.)
The way I think about this is that (which I hope is accurate; I'm not a historian) is that ethnocentrism has been the norm throughout human history, but the particular kind of "racism" that focuses on biological heritage wasn't much a thing until Europeans became involved in the African slave trade. I'm guessing the Romans were ethnocentric, but didn't care much about skin color.
Why is racism limited to the colour of one's skin?
If your problem with outsiders is that they're not Roman (cultural) rather than something about their race, and you have no issued with race once they're culturally Roman, then it seems like xenophobia rather than racism?
Technically it isn't, "one drop rule" and all that, but in practical terms most people equate race to skin color. I don't thin the Roman had our concept of "race", as that word is usually used today. Note they were just as bigoted as we are, just in different ways.
People could and did assimilate to Romaness. By the late Empire even the Greeks claimed to be Romans (and in some parts of Greece today people still claim to be Roman).
The Greeks may have claimed to be Romans, but did the Roman elites respect their claim?
"An unhealthy obsession with monogamy"
Upon reading that, I got the immediate impression of a guy who wants to bang as many chicks as he can get, or even have a string of them, but the women just won't oblige him. Since he is such a wonderful high-value catch, naturally it can't be him turning them off, so it must be something like bad old Christian values infecting them!
How fair that is to Carrier I don't know, but generally the guys complaining about "I'd be drowning in women except for..." are not such prime specimens as they think they are.
Well, if you weren't aware, multiple people in the skeptic movement accused him of sexual harassment, and then he sued all of them, and I don't know how those cases broke, in the end.
According to Wikipedia, "Carrier has both apologized for and denied the alleged misconduct". Which sounds confusing, but the things he apologized for, and the things he denied, are not the same things.
This is a webpage made by the people he sued, and... maybe I missed some important details, but it seems like his accusers don't have much of a point:
https://allegedlythewebsite.org/timeline
To give a specific example, the accusers say that Carrier "initiated flirting" with one of them, by calling her a "cute girl". A few lines before that, the girl offered sex to him, in a joking way. So I guess to see things from the perspective of the accusers, you need the mindset where jokingly offering sex is not flirting (I wonder how they would call that if a man did it), but calling someone cute is (and that's somehow a bad thing).
This sounds truly exhausting.
Could be. One of the problems with poly is always the large number of guys who just want to sleep around. It's part of the reason there's so much feminism and misandry in these poly and progressive areas--I mean, you read the polyamory subreddit and they're always going on about how horrible cishet men area. I suspect selection bias.
Not saying I'm any better, of course. ;)
Christian sexual hang ups also creased taboos for widows/widowers remarrying and led to grotesque punishments for people who had extra-marital and even pre-marital sex. It almost seems odd to me that someone would find it so unreasonable that anyone would think Christianity has an unhealthy obsession with morning and immediately interpret it as the critic just being a horndog. It seems obvious to me that Christianity has just such an unhealthy obsession, and I’m glad we live in a society where even Christians don’t take it very seriously any more.
Christianity is also a religion which lauded celibacy, even before monasticism took off. And for that reason we should be careful about pronouncing ancient Christianity as some sort of natalist cult. In modern Christianity much of that is owed to Protestantism where marriage and parenthood is seen to be normative. Europe's very slow recovery from the demographic collapse of the 6th century is can be attributed to the popularity of celibacy both in and out of monasteries.
Given what we know of early Christian views on relationships, they HAD an unhealthy obsession with monogamy, as bad as the Roman ideas of marriage, just bad in a different way.
And to some degree the same is true in modern times. The monogamy most people follow today is also broken and dysfunctional in a 100 different ways, its simply that the alternative is broken in different ways, and its obvious which set of disadvantages is worst.
Even your assumption about Carrier is off; even if he was that kind of numbers-obsessed sex animal, so are most men. And inversely, most women would reject Carrier, and focus on a better "catch" because most women logically focus on getting the best partner they can. Chastising either the "subconscious polygamists" or "subconscious hypergamists" make no sense if they make the majority, or at least substantial enough minority to effectively define the system.
Monogamy goes against those impulses and requires a lot of obsessive and ritual behavior to maintain, but there is no good alternative yet. So I would cut Carrier some slack here, I think he accidentally proves both systems dysfunctional just differently.
<i>Dignitas and its related ideas, even in the sense of the common worth of persons, was already a widely known pagan concept. So Christianity can’t claim to have invented it.</i>
I don't think that's really accurate. The Romans had a concept called "dignitas", but it was somewhere in between what we'd call "dignificed behaviour" and "the respect due to someone with great achievements to their name" (Caesar famously started the Civil War in order to protect his dignitas). The idea that everyone, of whatever rank or station, had an inherent dignitas was foreign to the Roman mindset, which is why they had no problem with (inter alia) making people kill each other for popular entertainment.
<i>And valuing freedom, rights, and autonomy was all a pagan idea.</i>
Again, pagans did value those things, but they usually meant something different to what we mean -- e.g., "freedom" mostly meant the ability of aristocrats to compete for high office on a more-or-less equal footing with their peers, "autonomy" was conceived politically, as a city-state's ability to make war and peace with whomever it chose, and so on.
Of course, that's not to say the Greeks and Romans were totally morally alien to us, but they certainly weren't Enlightenment-era liberals, and we can't assume that terms like "dignitas", "libertas", etc., meant the same to them as their common English translations mean to us.
About the jewish diaspora:
Actually, if we think that the urban jewish communities would have had slightly higher growth rates (or not actually negative ones like other urban groups) do to the same factors as the christians, this would explain how the diaspora happened. The jewish communities that were specialized in urban profesions would not have been able to stay in Judea and Gallilea since you needed much more land to feed large cities than those areas could provide, and the people in the countryside was already living at the malthusian maximum. As such any urban group that were actually growing, even if only slowly, would have had to spread to other cities in the empire, where they would help replace the pagans with negative growth.
Maybe, but wouldn't this require an implausibly high urban growth rate even giving the pro-growth factors discussed in the post? But I guess it did happen so it wasn't implausible.
Much of Mosaic law is tightly correlated with disease prevention. If a whole neighborhood is consistently following such policies, they're going to see far less disease-related attrition - each individual practitioner is less likely to catch a given minor illness per potential exposure event, and their neighbors spend less time infected, so fewer exposure events.
Keep in mind it's not just the big-name citywide-crisis plagues that kill people. Rome didn't have an FDA or CDC. Somebody sells cholera-contaminated pork, and their customers start getting terminal diarrhea? Options for legal recourse resemble "bad Yelp review" or the opening scene of The Godfather. Stuff like that was background noise - we don't have records of every small-time restaurant, much less gossip about their relative merits from one week to the next.
During the Black Death the Jewish population in Europe ghettos was much less likely to die of the plague probably due to their greater cleanliness and hygiene, and also their segregation from the Gentiles. Though this fueled the rumor that the Jews were causing the disease and led to pogroms.
the main difference between 100-300AD and 500BC is that the entire Mediterranean was part of the roman empire, people and ideas could move relatively easily
"Why the period 100AD - 300AD?"
It has to be mainly the Pax Romana, surely - allowing relatively free movement of people and ideas, and making armed resistance incredibly unappealing, for the first time in European history. Lasting peace probably had cultural impacts on Roman culture as well, but I'd weight the practical/logistical benefits more.
Also, Christianity was probably a quite specific convergence of appealing religious ideas that were more prone to going viral than other proto-peace and love religions that may have existed.
I hadn't thought about the "Romans make armed resistance sucks -> room for religions without emphasis on violence". Good idea, I'll ponder it!
Christianity also picked up a good deal of Neoplatonism and some ethics from the Stoics. This made it less strange to educated Greeks and Romans.
Hi MC!
Please tell me more about this peace-and-love religion of 500 BC. My understanding is that "love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you, judge yourself and not your neighbor" originated with Jesus.
Kind regards,
David
Well obviously the 500 BC Jesus didn't get traction and in the unlikely case that anyone wrote about him then that writing didn't survive.
So you're saying it wasn't the 'fullness of time'? ;)
Jainism and Daoism, I guess, but admittedly they're not very relevant to the spread of Christianity.
Hi Concavenator!
Those are both fine improvements over their respective status quos, but do either of them directly teach people to love their enemies? The closest pre-Christ statement I'm aware of is Buddha's "Let a man overcome anger by kindness, evil by good. Victory breeds hatred, for the conquered is unhappy. Never in the world does hatred cease by hatred. Hatred ceases by love."
Kind regards,
David
Daoism can't be an improvement over the status quo, because it's defined as the status quo. Daoism is to China what Hinduism is to India: the set of whatever the people there believe and/or practice.
I linked this elsewhere in the thread, but here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism
> Mohism promotes a philosophy of impartial caring; that is, a person should care equally for all other individuals, regardless of their actual relationship to them.
> he argued directly against Confucians who believed that it was natural and correct for people to care about different people in different degrees. Mozi, by contrast, believed people in principle should care for all people equally. Mohism stressed that rather than adopting different attitudes towards different people, love should be unconditional and offered to everyone without regard to reciprocation, not just to friends, family and other Confucian relations.
Hi Michael!
Thanks for the reply! I'll have to learn more about Mozi, and am humbled that I hadn't heard of him before. Did he go so far as to say, "love your enemy"? From my reading of Wikipedia and Wikiquote he seemed to stop short of that.
Have a great weekend!
Kind regards,
David
Well, there was Buddhism, which says a lot of the same stuff about nonviolence, not stealing, not sleeping around, honesty, and... not getting drunk. It spread in a different part of the world most of us don't know as much about (and was quite successful over there), but I'm sure there's a Buddhist around who could fill us in on the differences, might even be enlightening.
> It spread in a different part of the world most of us don't know as much about (and was quite successful over there)
Note that while that sentence is technically true, Buddhism was a complete failure in the area where it originated.
It was reabsorbed into Hinduism (from which it had never fully separated itself). Elsewhere it was sufficiently different from local religions that it survived as a distinct cult.
"Surely there was someone with a peace-and-love religion around in say 500 BC, but that religion didn't catch on."
Why are you so sure such a religion existed in 500 BC?
Because there were many humans around and humans tend to have ideas about things.
Humans are unoriginal and risk averse. Coming up with theological innovations would be usually seen as blasphemy and carried the risk of dying on a cross.
Yes, you're right. That's why in the entire history of mankind, no one has ever come up with any.
Hi MC!
In 500BC was there also an understanding of calculus that failed to catch on?
Kind regards,
David
You could say that there was a clear predecessor to Calculus around 250BCE, and also the correct infinite-series expansions for sin, cos, etc., in India around 1500CE. In Europe, Descartes and Fermat were clear forerunners.
Hi Gerald!
I agree. And there were predecessors to "Love your enemy" at that time, too. But not the full-fledged idea in either case.
Kind regards,
David
Unlike calculus, loving strangers doesn't build upon previous breakthroughs in logical reasoning.
Hi Victor!
The way I see it, loving your enemy (e.g., the guy who burned your house down, stole your possessions, raped your wife, and killed your children) is like calculus because it does require building upon previous moral breakthroughs.
First, you consider that not everything should be handled with selfishness: the family/community is worth sacrificing food/time/money/your life for. Second, you prefer justice over power (almost all ancient religions worshiped their gods for their power, not their morality). Third, you treat the stranger kindly by sharing or trading honestly with them (many communities instead tried to dominate all the outsiders they could). Fourth, you treat outsiders like one of the in-group. Fifth, you don't take revenge on your enemy for what they did, and instead just leave him be. Sixth, you forgive your enemy and forget about what he did to you. Seventh, you love your enemy and pray for his prosperity.
I don't see that seventh step anywhere in the world before Jesus, just like I don't see calculus anywhere in the world before Leibniz/Newton. Forerunners, yes. But not the full thing.
Have a great day!
Kind regards,
David
I don't want to come across as confrontational here, because I think we are all guessing in the dark, but I find it highly unlikely that the steps you lay out are necessary at all. I think it's equally plausible that a different set of steps would suffice as easily, or none at all. It just requires the adoption of a certain mindset. Whereas it is flat out impossible to do calculus, or even to understand what it is, prior to mastering certain other mathematical concepts.
Hi Victor!
Thanks for the reply! Yes, it is definitely a different mode of thinking. But personally, I think it is harder to come to the conclusion "I should love my enemy" than being the first to find the slope of a curve at a given point. With calculus there's a concrete goal and a plausible process to finding the slope. (Hence why it happened twice, independently.) But loving my enemy is entirely counter-intuitive, and no one in their right mind would start thinking in that direction. I find it hard to come to that conclusion without something like a revelation from God.
Kind regards,
David
I think steps one through six are in our nature and have been around since prehistory. Sometimes people would be cruel to outsiders, other times they would be kind. We of course don't have written accounts from prehistory, but we do have accounts of how other cultures, untouched by Christianity, treated outsiders (such as the various indigenous people in the Americas).
We evolved traits like compassion and altruism because they help us survive. We evolved to let our anger fade and forgive people because it's more adaptive. Other mammals show these traits too, which suggests they originated far back in our evolutionary history.
These intermediate steps were never new innovations. They've always been around.
> In 500BC was there also an understanding of calculus that failed to catch on?
Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_exhaustion
Hi again Michael!
I think you meant to say, "No:" because your link says: "The method of exhaustion is seen as a *precursor* to the methods of calculus."
Have another great weekend!
Kind regards,
David
You failing to understand your own question is not good evidence of... anything, really.
Buddhism! Even the math works! And it was a peace-and-love-religion (and is!) And it did catch on...in a different part of the world! It's one of the big religions in the world!
Would make an interesting compare-and-contrast.
It's worth noting that Christianity was not actually unique in rapidly rising and challenging the traditional Hellenistic religion. The cult of Sol Invictus and Mithraism are two other examples of roughly contemporaneous movements. I think it really is "everyone pretends to believe in Hellenistic religion but no one has taken it seriously for a century, and also the old folk spirituality stuff is kind of dead, and now everyone is hungry for meaning in life". so maybe we shouldn't be surprised that *something* arose in Rome. the more interesting thing, to me, is that Christianity displaced traditional polytheistic faiths all over the place and not just Hellenism.
Good points! Maybe Christianity won because it had the passion and zealotry that Sol Invictus lacked? I feel like the competitors were all too philosophical and logical. But maybe that's just because less primary sources about them survive. But then again if there were any Mithric martyrs we would have heard of it?
My limited understanding is that Christians, once they had sufficient power, persecuted the Mithrians out of existence and in some cases built churches directly on top of the Mithraeum structures. Maybe the winners write the histories?
the Sol-worship/ Roman Mithraism memetic complex was extremely easy to convert wholesale into simply a more militant form of Christianity. The "commoner" version of Mithraism was so simplistic, it was only one move away from being turned into a sort of sword arm for Christianity, all was needed is scrapping the most confusing parts of the Mithraist doctrine and stenciling IESUS in.
the cult of Sol was kinda artificial and clunky, but Mithraism (or rather, the Cliff's Notes version Legionaire "Mithraism", which had very little in common with the real thing), was going strong.
AFAIK, the problem with the "Mithraism" in Rome is that the version that spread was mostly a very crude version peddled to soldiers, which seemed less like a viable religion and more like something that Conan and Nietzsche would have written together if they were 15, drunk, and overdosed on pre-workout. It skimmed the surface of Zoroastran Mithraism for the most obvious Macho-Warrior-of -the-Light, testosterone filled stories for bros, and simplified it for the common troop.
Which was the reason Mithraism spread quickly but also died quickly, or rather, I would argue, was subsumed into the more militant part of Christianity. If you look at it closely, the whole mystery cult for bros/warrior society for Heroes vibe Mithraism had was pretty much copied wholesale into early Christian brawler-monks sects which did the first pagan persecutions.
> Surely there was someone with a peace-and-love religion around in say 500 BC, but that religion didn't catch on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism
> Did the Empire outgrow paganism?
This is a major idea of Razib Khan's, that Christianity spread because it enabled the administration of a large-scale society while paganism didn't, but it doesn't make sense to me. If you look at India and China, they're pagan today.
> Did philosophy catch on and make pagan superstitions seem illogical, creating a gap that the more theological Christianity could fill?
The first part of that definitely happened. It happened a long time before 100 AD. The pagan Greeks saw pagan superstitions as illogical. Xenophanes, from the 6th century BC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes ), is remembered today for his observation that if horses were to make statues of gods, those statues would be in the shape of horses.
It's not obvious why this would be an advantage for Christianity, though; its superstitions are no better.
The trick was, Christianity never replaced Paganism, it subsumed it. Entire pantheons of gods were converted into Saints, and their holidays, rituals, and often forms of worship were translated 1to1 into Christian folklore without missing a beat.
Most Romans who worshiped Sol Unconquered simply started calling Sol IESUS, and continued as usual, with only minor, and largely culturally irrelevant changes to the form of the ritual.
Major reason for the success of Christianity was that the Pagans, when asked to worship Jesus, were "yeah, sure, why not? So Jesus is like another name for (insert their own main deity)?"
It is arguably most visible in the rampant "paganification" of Virgin Mary, who sprouted thousands of "local avatars" which basically work like minor pagan goddesses for the rural population, with their own holy woods, springs and fonts, open-sky worship, fertility rituals, crossroads totems/shrines, and even rivalry with other tribes who dare to worship a different form of Mary. The local Virgin Maries have almost nothing to do with being the mom of Jesus, they are flowers-and-nature themed goddesses who bless fields, cows, help with pregnancy, and fend off bad weather, if given proper votives. And to note, this is true today just as it was true in 300AD or 1300AD. You can drive to a random small town in Poland, Haiti or Guatemala and basically participate in the worship of Mother Goddess who's connection to Christianity is only in tenuous small print.
> Most Romans who worshiped Sol Unconquered simply started calling Sol IESUS
Jesus?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah#Pagan_associations_and_mountaintops
Robin Lane Fox has an interesting take on this in Pagans And Christians. In his view, Greek paganism was essentially a communal activity, local to each city. It was built on civic cohesion, maintained by philanthropy, festivals, etc. Lane Fox argues (not very rigorously) that imperial rule undermined this cohesion, both through higher levels of migration and by ensconcing the rich families in power. This created a social vacuum which was filled by empire-wide institutions: the mystery cults and especially Christianity.
Interesting take, thanks for sharing!
I've also seen a claim (in "The Fate of Rome") that the economic troubles of the 3rd century-- hyperinflation etc.-- bankrupted the old civic cult temples so they could no longer afford the mass sacrifices and festivals which had made them popular.
In the 7th century BC the Babylonians also dispersed the Jews (at least a good many of them) after conquering Judea. Some of their descendants did return when Cyrus the Great allowed it, but others, having prospered in the meantime among the Gentiles, did not. After the conquests of Alexander the Jews spread into the Hellenistic world often encouraged by the Successor kings-- we know that Alexandria had a huge Jewish populace. It was for their sake that the Septuagint was translated, and there were regular riots between the Jewish and Hellenic populations. Rome had a Jewish population by the beginning of the Empire; an anti-Christian riot among them is recorded there in the reign of Claudius.
Child and infant mortality in pagan Rome was terrible, but that's not because of infanticide. Has Stark examined the many tombstones put up by grieving parents throughout the empire? The imperial families certainly weren't practising infanticide - they wanted to have as many surviving male heirs and spares as possible - yet Vespasian was the only one in centuries who had two sons surviving to adulthood. Also, in between celebrating the birth rate among Christians, does Stark remember to explain that, unlike either gentiles or Jews, the Christians - following Jesus's injunction in the Gospel of Luke (18:29-30) to leave one's family, and Paul's grudging approval of marriage - basically invented, and certainly promoted, professional celibacy? Aristotle had thought that there might be such a thing as excessive self-control, only because his theory required that the virtues were means between excess and deficiency, but it wasn't until Christian monasticism that it was actually evident on a daily basis. Also, it's almost certainly the case that the early Christians were attempting to imitate pagan virtues; they were certainly attempting to present Christianity as 'another philosophical school,' like Platonism, Pythagoreanism, or Stoicism (this is evident from Justin the Martyr's work), just the only correct one - and educated pagan men (as well as wealthy women) were the most valued converts. That suggests a desire of emulation, at least at first.
<i>Has Stark examined the many tombstones put up by grieving parents throughout the empire?</i>
Or, indeed, the many tombstones put up by widowers praising their dead wives.
> [The imperial families] wanted to have as many surviving male heirs and spares as possible
I don't think this can be true. It's oddly difficult to find any contemporary source discussing the topic, but I struggle to believe that almost this whole set of supremely powerful, ambitious men could miss their mark so badly. Compare them for instance to medieval kings, who lacked the same freedom to divorce & remarry. As Scott says, the general population trend was slow growth, and these men with limitless resources, secluded estates & free choice of wives were surely ideally placed to exceed it.
Again, I don't know any contemporary source which substantiates it, but to me the only credible explanation is that the emperors were going to great lengths to avoid splitting their inheritance. According to e.g. Colin Wells and Robin Lane Fox, this was the general pattern of the Roman upper class.
Thanks Taj for taking the point seriously. I think the exception which proves the rule is Marcus Aurelius, and his wife Faustina. Out of fourteen (!) live births, they had six children including only one son, Commodus, surviving to adulthood. Clearly, they were trying to have as many children as they could, no doubt in part because Marcus was conscious that his role required all the help he could get (as he and, for a time, his co-emperor Verus had helped their adoptive father, Antoninus Pius), but also because he seems to have loved children - and parental love was, for Stoics, part of the 'glue of the cosmos.'
The widespread practice of adoption, btw, must also be one piece of evidence that there weren't enough surviving natural heirs. Historians (e.g. Walter Scheidel) have asked 'Was Marcus "just unlucky"?' to have so few children survive out of so many (one factor in the high mortality of their children may have been that Marcus and Faustina were first cousins, and had some genetic problem/s amplified by the relationship).
Interesting case! I can't find a similarly strong example for my theory. I wonder if anyone's tried to collate all such fertility accounts for the senatorial class?
This is the Scheidel article - you may be able to get free access if you can use JSTOR. I am not sure if anyone's updated the research (this version of Scheidel was 2012): https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-quarterly/article/abs/emperors-aristocrats-and-the-grim-reaper-towards-a-demographic-profile-of-the-roman-elite/C28EC329BF79D6D4C529DE08BD471259
There's a theory that lead plumbing damaged urban fertility, especially among the upper classes who had water piped directly into their homes.
Isn't some of this the "history is written by the victors" effect?
Also wrt to Mormonism, they seem to have similar assimilation patterns to Jews. There's a high fertility highly religious "core", and as people move away from that, their fertility rate drops to similar to the surrounding population, and they're more likely to intermarry and assimilate completely.
I think the main advantage Mormons have vs Jews is that Mormons have conversion *and* fertility, while Orthodox Jews just have fertility.
See the quotation discussing the opinion of the Emperor Julian, an enemy of Christianity.
My favorite story about Julian is that he tried to build the Third Temple so that Judaism would defeat Christianity, but Almighty God judged this to be naughty in His sight and literally sent balls of fire from underground to wreck the whole project. As far as miracles go, this gets incredibly little attention relative to its historical significance. Materialist dopes on Wikipedia will tell you that it was an earthquake or something, but Materialism is always wrong and the truth is that God didn't want any more animal sacrifices from His chosen people (the sacrifice of the Cross having replaced it) so He killed it with fire.
sounds suspiciously like a bunch of Christians with some sapping equipment and rudimentary explosives were the culprit.
There has to be a strong "history is written by the victors" effect. For the 1500 years between Rome's conversion to Christianity and the Enlightenment, 99% of literate Europeans were Christians. Let's say you're a 13th-century monk who has to hand-copy a bunch of decaying old manuscripts from the 200s. Most of them are boring, tedious stuff written by pagans that doesn't relate to your life at all. One of them is the thrilling tale of Saint X, who did something brave, and now there's a fun little festival for Saint X once a year. Which manuscript are you going to copy?
funnily enough, 9 times out of 10, Saint X used to be Pagan God X, whos fun little festival was copied wholesale. So inadvertently the monk preserved the knowledge of the pagan rituals.
Remember that Pascal's Wager also came from Christianity. I think this is memetically powerful:
Unlike Judaism where you can simply be a Righteous Gentile, and not burn in hell for eternity, Christianity doesn't offer that option.
You can either be a Christian and go to heaven. Or a non-Christian and go to hell.
And if you buy into that idea at all, you are strongly incentivized to buy into it fully to avoid hell.
It's honestly impressive that Judaism has survived has long as it has despite being completely out-competed memetically by Christianity. And uh, also despite everything else that happened to its followers.
Is it that impressive? How many religions just died?
...Almost all of them? There's a reason we're just calling them "pagans" instead of referring to the religions by name. There's a huge amount of religions out there that were followed seriously in the past but are nothing more but trivia in the modern day. A lot of them were out-competed by more optimized religions, some of them we just converted all of its adherents or just killed them all. Just think of all the weird tribal religions that died out because of colonialism. Not that anything of value was lost, of course.
Mh true, I was thinking of "bigger" religions probably.
Zoroastrianism was huge but down to no more than 200,000 adherents today and falling.
Many Thanks! That was the example I was thinking of.
Its also true of Samaritanism which had >1,000,000 followers in ancient and maybe even medieval times but now has less than 1,000 and may go extinct within our lifetimes.
That’s a close relative of Judaism (and in fact has at least as much of a claim if not more to being close to the preexilic religion, whatever it was like, no?).
Many Thanks!
Zoroastrianism is a close analogue to Judaism in so far as it has long been the religion of a small minority outside its country of origin.
Zoroastranism was the root religion of Roman Mithraism, which was a serious contender fro the main religion of Rome at some time, though how zoroastrian the Mithraists were is up to debate.
Manichaeism was once practiced all the way from Spain to China, and is now almost extinct.
is it though? Christianity borrowed so much from Manichaeist doctrine and practice as to essentially be a partial descendant.
Arguably, the majority of pagan religions were not wiped out but consumed by Christianity and Islam.
Out of all the variety of indo-European religions existing in the 5th century bce - Greek, Roman, Slavic, Norse, Iranian, Hindu, etc - only one still survives today.
If you call hinduism one religion, maybe. But "hinduism" is a term the british invented for a great variety of competing (and cooperating) religions in India. Shaivism, shaktivism, krishnaism come to mind. Buddhism also started in the 6th or 5th BCE
How strongly did they compete? E.g. if someone followed Shaktivism and switched to Krishnaism, would their family or neighbors be upset or angry the way e.g. Muslims react when one of them switches to Christianity, or are they more compatible than that?
Very strongly - there are temples all over India where a king made the architect make a half-Shiva/half-Vishnu character in stone as a symbol for all their subject to quit fighting and just get along.
Many Thanks!
note though, that functionally, all these religions survived, at least on the rural, and praxis level inside Christianity as local religious folklore. While doctrine changed, the actual practice seemed to continue with little change, to the point that you can trace the worship of the most of the Christian Saints and local Mary Virgins to their pagan roots, often barely disguised.
Sure,very few people openly worship Odin, but all kids believe in Santa, who just randomly happens to be a northern supernatural trickster magical man with a white beard who rides reindeer sledge. It is also surely a coincidence that the Night of St'John matches the pagan rites of the Ferttility Night near perfectly, while All Hallows somehow matches Halloween and its equivalents.
Allow me to express regret that much of value was, in fact, lost.
arguably, the pagan religions, especially European Pagan religions, were subsumed wholesale into Catholic Christianity, either through direct 1to1conversion (ex: Fertility God Exampleicus is now Saint Exampleicus, worshiped the exact same way except we put a crucifix in there somewehere), or Christianity would invent the same thing again (ex: Fertility God Exampleicus was banned, but after some consideration, we encourage you to worship Saint Randomius who just happens to serve the same function).
Where all else failed, the Church simply encouraged the worship of their best secret (sacred?) weapon, the Swiss-Army knife or deities: Virgin Mary.
Virgin Mary can be tweaked to fill the function of every minor local pagan deity one could possibly want, and she is so poorly defined in content as to assume every possible avatar (from an equivalent of a Fertility Goddess to a straight up Mother of Death and Vengeance).
Clearly it wasn't out-competed. They had different target audiences - pagans had nothing to lose memetically, whereas Jews were already the chosen people, so for them it was a downgrade.
The power of a religion is mostly proportional to the amount of followers it has, as well as the military and geopolitical influence of its followers. Christianity completely dwarfs Judaism in both of these, and even Islam is magnitudes more powerful them, the only thing stopping them being the fact that the Christians are allied against them. In that sense, the Jews of this world have every right to fear for their lives: they only continue to exist because the rest of the world allows them to exist. They have no real agency over their future.
Those are proselytizing religions though, whereas Judaism never was one. An ethnic religion has its own specific advantages, and the fact that Jews thrive nowadays compared to their Semitic relatives, who ended up being absorbed into Christianity and Islam, should be compelling evidence.
>They have no real agency over their future.
They certainly appear to have more of it than generic "white people" of the West.
There is at least some evidence of proselytizing for Judaism before the first century CE, e.g. https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2022/03/19/proselytism-in-the-ancient-mediterranean-before-christianity/
Judaism was a proselytising religion in Roman times. Plus, genetics seems to confirm that it has generally tended to open up a bit in times of migration, especially when there are not enough Jewish women around at first.
Also, Jews being weird and different was accepted in a way that Christianity wasn't - the Romans were aware it was a very old religion, and they respected that (while obviously bringing down the hammer in case of actual *revolts*).
I think if Christianity invented “love” then Judaism invented responsibility. They pull this wonderful trick of, whenever things go poorly, they re-assert with probability 1 that God loves them, and interpret the evidence as, “we must have screwed up.” This meant they would reason about what they did wrong to incur God’s wrath. “If we don’t look out for each other, the poor and widows suffer and our social structure becomes fragile, and this means we can’t defend ourselves .” Pretty clever! This is why I think they are still around: their religious believes act as a cultural form of memory and reflection, with the goal of learning how to survive and thrive. They learned a fully generalized model of survival: learn a set strict of traditions and stick to them no matter what, which requires the cultivation of virtue and willingness to sacrifice. The orthodox pass this on, generation after generation. It’s longevity across multiple different technological eras is, to me, evidence of its fitness across niches.
Cannot the same "we did something wrong and angered the god" sentiment lead to completely opposite direction: The god is angry so let's sacrifice some children to please him". What makes the difference? Is the main difference that some gods are perceived to be evil and others good? In this case there's a question that historians of culture maybe can answer, when did Jewish God become good. Because early on it feels like just a standard demon-like regional god like most others, right? Was it Zoroastrian influence, or much earlier?
It can, and did, but the sacrifices didn't work. Jews came up with things like "don't eat certain [parasite laden] animals" and other changes in behavior that affect the molecules impinging on their bodies.
The parasite problem of pigs sounds interesting, though I strongly suspect that cheap highly nutritious foodstuff would have been more beneficial than avoiding parasites by refusing that easy food. Another theory suggests that keeping pigs was relatively easy and cheap compared to other meat animals, so this was overwhelmingly done by poor people, which made it low status, and at some point some group of people decided to avoid eating that filthy low status food to make themselves look better. I have no idea which theory closer to truth. In case of parasite problem the best working cultural shift would be heating your meat for longer, I'm sure this has occurred several times.
In a preindustrial context, the fuel necessary for sufficiently thorough cooking wasn't a negligible expense, and precise thermometers (to clearly define a safe compromise point) weren't available at any price.
Foodborne illnesses aren't necessarily the sort of thing any reasonable amount of extra nutrition can offset. https://narts.sylvanmigdal.com/?date=20200509
If you are poor, you cook your meats by throwing it in a soup or stew.
That way you also extract a lot more nutrients out of them than almost any other way of preparation.
You can cook your meat. That gets rid of the parasites.
Read "Odysseus' Scar" by Erich Auerbach, it appears to have come much earlier.
According to the bible some neighboring Canaanite religions did the whole child sacrifice thing. But Judaism specifically descends from those Canaanites whose holy book says that child sacrifice is an abomination unto God and warns them to not copy their neighbors.
I know their neighbors to the north sacrificed children, but did Ammonites, Moabites, etc., all sacrifice children as well? There’s a Moabite stele (if I remember correctly) whose logic is basically Israelite: our god (not YHWH, something else) is the greatest god, we owe fealty only to him, when we were defeated, it was because we were wicked and unfaithful, now he’s on our side again, etc.
My point is less that Moabites practiced child sacrifice and more that Judaism has very strong taboos against child sacrifice, which is why that wouldn't come up as a "solution" to things going badly.
(The bible does indeed mention at least one Moabite king sacrificing his child, but of course that could just be propaganda)
Well, Jephtha sacrificed his daughter, so...
And the Talmud has a lot of criticism about that behavior! The bible isn't just stories about perfect people perfectly obeying God's laws.
Both the Greeks and Romans, in classical times, had a horror of human sacrifice. The Athenian tragedians rewrote the myth of the sacrifice of Iphigenia such that Artemis saved the girl and substituted a stag in her place. Lurid tales of human sacrifice were part of the propaganda used by the Romans to justify conquering Carthage and the Gauls.
It wasn’t just the ancient Israelites - Moabites were in the same game very early on.
If you interpret Jesus symbolically, he represents sacrificing your life, with love, for the good of Man (humanity). Embracing that path _actually_ brings your reality, your consciousness towards "heaven" in the long run. Placing something else above that, whatever it is you choose to "worship" (money, sex, fame, etc.), _actually_ brings your reality / consciousness towards "hell" in the long run.
This is an odd misstating of Pascal’s Wager. His wager essentially hinged on the idea that believing in God had unlimited potential upside (Heaven for eternity, etc.) and that not believing in God had limited potential upside in comparison. Either way, it’s an interesting hypothesis, but there are of course plenty of Protestant sects that do not hold the belief that “Gentiles” will go to hell. Mormonism, for example, does not hold that to be true.
I wonder if pre-christian religious movements tended more to be optimized for agriculture, eg "pray to the harvest god" type and so Christianity emerges and flourishes, because it fits the more cosmopolitan, urban folk better? Maybe the Greek/Roman thing of having many gods with various attributes and domains over varuous human affairs was just over-stretched for its context?
The monotheist "one god fits all" approach, avoid hell, go to heaven, may just have been more durable. Ex: an agricultural worker would have to temporarily switch gods if he moved to the city to find work for a season - but not if he became Christian. Same with someone who apprentices and learns a craft.
The Hardcore History podcast episode series Twilight of the Æsir goes into how Christianity spread in Scandinavia in 900-1200. Basically it was politics. A Christian country wanted it's largely unorganised pagan neighbours to convert, because that would improve relations with them, make them less likely to raid and most importantly mean that they could send bishops to influence foreign policy in their favour. So often during peace deals they would have the pagan kings convert. Christianity was also a good deal for kings, because it consolidated their rule better than their local variant of paganism did, so they would often aggressively promote it and treat it as treason if people were pagan or de-converted.
And on top of this all, the pagan religions didn't put effort into conversions (and the few that did did it too late), and in some cases were heredity, so they couldn't convert people to it. Whereas the Christian missionaries spent a lot of time and effort to figure out how to make Christianity appealing to pagans, so naturally they had the advantage.
Similarly, if you've listened to the History of Byzantium podcast, you know there were centuries of back-and-forth in southeastern Europe where local potentates would convert to (what would become) Orthodox Christianity for political reasons, and then convert back to paganism because their local populations hated it and it was costing them too much support among lower-level nobles. A lot of the history of Europe's conversion to Christianity, especially after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, involves conversion at the point of a sword or spear.
That doesn't surprise me that it was led by the kings. We tend to think of religion as an individual choice now, but historically it was a collective one - the King converted, and then everyone under him converted as well (the flip side is that you had communities resisting conversion for centuries to a dominant surrounding religion from it, because conversion meant essentially social death in many cases - a total breach of all family and community ties).
This is kind of true, at least as far as the fact that in many Scandinavian countries the kings converted before the main population. However, we also have some imprtant facts:
-According to the Gesta Danorum, king Sweyn Forkbeard actually lived part of his life as a crypto christian in order to not lose support among his subjects.
-The farmers of Norway successfully rebelled and killed their violently missionarying king Olaf. Then they mainly converted on their own, and sent people to find his son, Magnus, in Kiev so they could make him king.
-The Icelanders, the most learned and culturally self confident of all the northeners, didn't have kings. Apparently they mad a sort of democratic decision to all convert to christianity after a long public discussion in the year 1000 AD. Paganism then disappeared in the country despite a lack of organized persecution.
Interesting. What was the advantage for Icelanders of converting to Christianity?
A few had already converted and each side didn't want to recognize the laws of the other side. To avoid a civil war, the pagan leader of the Icelandic parliament thought about it for a while and then decided that it would probably be best if everyone just converted, or something like that. Seems a bit implausible, but this is at least the myth that was written down more than a century later. https://sagamuseum.is/overview/#thorgeir-ljosvetningagodi
Wikipedia:
"Around 961, Eldgjá, a volcano in Southern Iceland, erupted 7.7 square miles of lava and lifted up huge clouds of sulfuric gas that affected all of Northern Europe and spanned out as far as Northern China. It also created rare hazes and multiple food crises in different parts of the world, including that year and many years that followed. Early Norse settlers in Iceland followed Paganism, however, after the Eldgjá volcano eruption, many thought of it as an act from God and started to convert to Christianity instead with the help of Alþingi. It is also believed they converted to Christianity to maintain peace with their European neighbors and the Catholic church.
In the year 1000, as a civil war between the religious groups seemed likely, the Alþingi appointed one of the chieftains, Thorgeir Ljosvetningagodi, to decide the issue of religion by arbitration. He decided that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, but that pagans would be allowed to worship privately. "
Ya I think it came down to trust. In pagan societies the only people you could trust were your clan. Christianity gave higher ideals so you could trust other Christians not in your own clan. That was super revolutionary at the time!
Nowdays society has so far injested that trust that we don't even notice it. And religions like Christianity don't have the same advantage.
From the podcast that didn't seem to be the case. There was even an instance of one group of pagans seeking out another to rule over them. And they followed roughly the same pantheon after all.
It was more their attachment to paganism wasn't nearly as strong as Christians were attached to Christianity, and politically Christianity was very important and advantageous to them.
302 people per acre, no indoor plumbing for most people - that sounds like urban life in a metropolis up to the end of the 19th century. Look up Table 1 in page 2 of https://sasn.rutgers.edu/sites/default/files/2024-02/ManhattanDensityApril2014.pdf (just what a quick Google search gave me). In 1893-4, Manhattan had 143.2 people/acre, but the Eleventh Ward had 964.4. In 1891, Paris had 125.2 people/acre, but the Bonne Nouvelle neighborhood (central and hence now expensive) had 434.2. Density in a neighborhood can be more telling than density in a city, as the latter depends heavily on how the city is defined.
Squalor was a fact of life also later, in the Middle Ages, when population densities were lower. Not sure density tells us much more than 'people were living in multi-family buildings that were several stories high'.
Apparently Edinburgh was like that as well. Thankfully, they had sloped alleyways so that the shit slid down into the nearby lake.
Every city under the sun was like that until several decades into the industrial revolution.
Makes me wonder why so many people moved from the country to the city. The life of a farm hand doesn't seem nearly as bad in comparison, and the countryside didn't smell any worse back then than it does now.
There was still opportunity and freedom in the city, which you don’t have when you are a subsistence farmer living in the same house as your parents and cousins. You go the city, you live in shit, but also you can spend your whole day practicing a trade and making money, and meeting new people, and changing your life one way or another.
Yea. The scholarship on what it was like to live in the country, for 95% of the rural population anyway, is pretty hair-raising.
For centuries European serfs were legally bound to the ground they were born onto, because being born a serf sucked so much that striking out to try pretty much anything else was rational for many people at many times in many places. And if they were allowed to do that in numbers then the feudal lords would quickly not have enough serfs for their purposes.
This isn't a case where the law is telling you anything. In the wake of the Black Death, there was a frenzy of legal activity binding serfs to the lands they were supposed to work. The reason for the activity was that they were leaving en masse. The new laws did nothing to change this.
There wasn't enough land or work for everyone. If you had no inheritance to look forward to your choices were A) starve B) become an outlaw (which did not come with a long life expectancy) or C) migrate to a city and hope to make your fortune there.
Right up into the 19th century (when the sanitary revolution began to change things) urban death rates were everywhere higher than urban birth rates; cities only survive because of constant migration from the country.
Also, what percentage of the population enjoyed Roman sanitation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitation_in_ancient_Rome)? Was it only a tiny elite? Or was it more like a typical Third-World capital nowadays - a tiny elite lives very well indeed all things considered, a large group barely hangs on (but manages to get water and the like most of the time) and another large group lives in shanties or seriously derelict tenements?
Great post! This is connected to another mystery I've wondered about: The fast spread of Islam. In contrast to Christianity, it was blindingly fast! Within Mohammad's lifetime, eg basically in 20 years, pretty much the entire Arabian peninsula was Muslim. A hundred years later, the entire middle east, Persia, north Africa and Iberia had followed suit.
I looked into this a bit, and it seems that forced conversions were a tiny part of this story. People just really loved it, couldn't get enough of it for some reason! It's not the birth rate or 40% per decade growth rate. It might be the morality thing...? I think there's a real question here.
The Arabian Peninsula has very few people due to being mostly desert, though.
I like the contrarian theory that "Islam" was created by the Umayyad Caliphate who standardized and canonized the Koran and then pushed down on the populace from the top.
Oh, that would explain a lot! So to fill in the gaps, Mohammad was an expansionist military leader with maybe some religious ideas, the Rashiduns were mostly secular but wildly expansionist, and the Umayyads quickly converted everybody and rewrote and canonized the history of Islam.
I feel like probably this is contradicted by a million little things, but I'm not a historian - I'd love to read about this if it's really a thing.
But still: The Turks (eg the Seljuks) just massively converted to Islam at the drop of a hat, as did Indian, Mongolian and even Indonesian populations. Why? How?
Basically so but I wouldn't call the Rashiduns "secular": they were religious but it wasn't as formalized as later sources imply.
I agree that the later mass conversion is interesting, but I don't think it was at a drop of a hat. Someone conquers your land. Their new overseer says that there's this thing called "Islam" and you get better treatment if you adhere to it. You say "sure, I'll be a muslim" and continue with your life as usual but go through the motions of muslim practice when it's needed to impress the overseer. Six generations later your decedents are "muslim" but still cling to much of your old religions as folk beliefs.
But the Seljuks were Turks who conquered the Arabs! And yet instead of converting everyone to ... Tengrism? They took on the religion of their conquered foe.
That's a different phenomena: A small ruling elite gradually adopts the ways of the conquered people. Seems pretty natural to me: Imagine that you're a steppe warrior born in a yurt but then you find yourself in a palace surrounded by bureaucrats and clerks who all have the Koran memorized and also know how to actually administrate the empire you just stole. Would you let one of them educate your sons or would you send your sons away to a yurt in the middle of nowhere so that they can get really good at horse archery?
Harun al-Rshid's mother complained that the Persians had managed an empire just fine without Arabs, but that after the Arabs conquered Persia, they found that they could not get on for a single day without Persians to run things.
Like the Vikings and Normans integrating into the English population.
Well, the Qing dynasty in China tried to keep their 'barbarian' roots alive.
They based the entire legitimacy of their rule on their conformance to existing Chinese culture. Their whole thing was living as model Confucians.
Mongols were a tiny population (at the broadest definition, there are only about 10 million Mongols in the world today) and didn't really have the numbers to impose their culture or religion on conquered peoples.
You can impose your culture with numbers, but you don't have to do it that way. The Turks made zero demographic impact on Turkey, but everyone there speaks Turkish now. Hungary is similar.
If the "better treatment" is avoiding a flat tax, which as I understand it was at least sometimes literally the case, it's probably possible to calculate the effective hourly rate someone would effectively be earning by going through the motions.
Then the folks who care far more about principles than money (and, per typical mind fallacy, assume most others do too) see swaths of the social network converting (with particular insistence on sincerity of belief whenever the cops might hear, since fraud or apostasy is no laughing matter), and give the idea due consideration.
What surprises me is how many Hindus, especially lower-caste Hindus, didn't convert.
why is that a surprise to you?
Because it is apparently different from what happened in Persia, Egypt, Malaysia, and many other places.
Also because converting from a religion in which one is hereditarily at the bottom of the totem pole to one where said totem pole doesn't even exist seems like kind of the obvious play from the perspective of individual and familial self-interest, ceteris paribus.
Most Indians and Mongolic peoples never did convert.
Re: the Umayyads quickly converted everybody
This is incorrect. The Umayyad era was wracked by a debate as to whether Islam was the ethnic religion of the Arabs and if conversion should even be allowed. Even once the latter was affirmed, it took centuries for areas under the Caliph's rule to become majority Muslim, which is why parts of the Middle East still had large Christian populations right down to our own day.
A common pattern of conversion, in Islam, Christianity and Buddhism, was for the ruler to convert whereupon those seeking to remain in or gain his favor also did so, and so on among lesser peoples. Outright coerced conversion by the sword was pretty rare, though discriminatory laws would create a preference for people to convert.
+1. There really isn't a whole lot of primary sources on this until like Uthman and later. The received story about Islam spreading at light speed accross Arabia may be just that, a story. Contemporary records from Persia and Byzantium at the time don't really give the impression that the Arabs had some new, fully formed monotheism at first. Persian writers speculated it was a new Christian heresy, Roman writers thought maybe a new Jewish heresy. Its not until about 150 years after the death of Mohammad that its treated as an obvious new faith with a name.
Maybe it's just semantics. Gnostic Christianity and Mormonism and the like are at least as different from vanilla Christianity as Islam, yet are mostly referred to as heresies or denominations.
Muslims were a minority in Egypt (which is just the one I know about) until after Saladin, five hundred years after the conquest, though.
That's not quite true. Islam took control of Egypt by the 8th century, but as best as well can tell Muslims didn't even start to become the majority there until the 11th century (or possibly later).
We actually shouldn't overestimate how fast Islam spread. It spread very fast at the level of *conquering territory on the map*, but it took much longer (on the scale of centuries) to convert the masses. Egypt remained majority Christian until I believe the 10th or 11th century, Palestine was majority Christian at the time of the Crusades, Iran also took a couple of centuries for islam to supplant Zoroastrianism as the majority religion. Some regions of West Africa saw the elites convert by the 11th or 12th century but didn't actually become majority Muslim until the mid to late 20th century.
and then of course there were areas that were ruled by Muslims for centuries but never did become majority Muslim, like much of the Balkans and the Gangetic Plain.
I think this simply has to do with culture. In the Balkans, and I believe in Mongol culture too, religion is a very personal thing. Forced conversion, from either end of the sword, is a foreign concept.
>People just really loved it, couldn't get enough of it for some reason!
This is not really reflective of the literature on the adoption of Islam I'm familiar with. Islamic conquerors took over Byzantine and Persian institutions of state as an extractive elite, but otherwise existed as a thin caste of warrior-occupiers for centuries. This may even have been preference, as it optimized their tax base, and syriac clergy were the backbone of their early administrative capacity. The Middle East and North Africa are still "Christian civilizations" at the time of the Crusades - there's interesting work examining name trends in the records confirming how late this went - and it is only punitive restrictions and pecuniary pressure on Christian communities and their worship that led, over many centuries, to majorities making the legally unidirectional escape from second-class status (and even then, substantial Christian groups existed in these territories until modern ethnic transfers). There are notable instances where population conversions were non-coercive, namely Indonesia's adoption upon exposure to islamic merchants, but they are more exceptional than the repeated bloodless missionary successes that converted places like Ireland, Korea, Abyssinia, and briefly made the Nestorians the largest Church in the world.
If I'm being mischievous, Islam was considered a Christian heresy up to the early Middle Ages, so you could say that Mohammad took the best bits of Christianity and Judaism, moulded it to his own form, and spread it that way. I wonder if part of the appeal was similar to that in the Reformation around Lutheranism and Calvinism: you can't achieve salvation on your own, by yourself you are doomed to be miserable, BUT if you put your faith completely in the Divine Word you are saved and need do nothing more! Saying the shahada with faith and conviction, and accepting Jesus as saviour with faith and conviction, are both enough.
And in return, instead of the shadowy and gloomy afterlife (if there is even an afterlife) where the dead squeak and gibber like bats, you obtain a glorious afterlife of bliss in Heaven.
That lines up with interpretations I've heard that part of why Islam caught on so quickly in formerly-Eastern Roman Empire territories is that many of the territories in question, particularly Egypt and Syria, mostly practiced or at least sympathized with Monophysite Christianity. The Orthodox Church had been condemning Monophysitism as heresy, with the support of the Imperial government, and actively trying to suppress it off and on for the previous century or so, so there was quite a bit of bad blood between Monophysites and Orthodox. It didn't help that during the Sasanian Persian occupation of the territories in question during the Byzantine-Sasanian War of 602-628 (ending just a few years before the first big wage of Muslim invasions), the Persians had allowed Monophysites to practice their religion openly while simultaneously suppressing the Orthodox Church.
The interpretation (as I understand it) is that Islam had enough theologically in common with Monophysite Christianity, and Monophysites saw themselves as separate enough from Orthodox Christianity, that Islam was memetically an easy sell to Monophysites. I'm not sure I buy this: the second part makes sense to me, but the first part doesn't. In particularly, Monophysite Christology (as I understand it) is that Jesus's nature is entirely divine, as opposed to Chalcedonian Christology (shared by Orthodox, Catholic, and most Protestant Churches) that Jesus has both human and divine natures which are distinct but combined inseperably into a single being. Muslim Christology (as I understand it) is that Jesus was a mortal prophet like Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Mohammed and thus only had human nature.
Unless I'm missing something big, Muslim Christology seems quite a bit further from the Monophysites than the Chalcedonian position.
Scott mentioned a higher tax rate for non-Muslims in an old post on Slate Star Codex. I think that might explain some of it, but not nearly all.
It seems to have spread fast among Arabs, but it took centuries to reach a majority share among conquered peoples. Until recent migrations and genocides, core Islamic territories in the Levant and Iraq had Christian minorities of 10-30%.
Fo the conversion of Arabs, one of the theories is that they were 'primed' for monotheism, being a pagan people completely surrounded by monotheists (mostly christians). Another is that there was some widely believed story that Arabs were the descendants of Ishamel and some awareness of traditional jewish rituals. The present-day Yemen had a jewish-ish monotheistic religion south of the arabian interior. This story changed accepting Islam from a betrayal of the religion of your father to a RETVRN to the religion of your ancestors. This is at least consistent with the relative prominence of Abraham as compared to Jesus in Islam (they are both on the same tier of prophet but you will meet a lot more Ibrahims than Isas).
For later mass conversions, out side of conquest, merchants played a large role, as did medicine. This seems to be less "people willing to risk plagues" and more "at least kind of knows what they're doing".
I believe it has a lot to do with the quran and the arabic language and the infinite poetic interpretations of both. I believe if the unconscious mind likes to express itself in language and art then languages like arabic tap into this much faster than say latin or greek. Even here in egypt a lot of my christian friends find beauty in the language compared to coptic. Its just a coincidence that the dialect of Quraysh was used to write the quran and its the reason why arabic is the way it is today, and because of the quran being an artistic master work (imo because its infinitely reinterpretable, like hamlet etc) that provoked a lot of medieval and sufi poetry and raised the bar on what's possible with the languge. I think Mohammed and his sahaba like ali were seen as leaders of a revolution because of apparent beauty of the text in arabic (not the meaning) and thats why they create cults around recitation. The majority of people where probably nomads who forcibly converted, but still I think anyone who knows arabic cannot deny the addiction you get to hearing the text and the stimming you feel reading it yourself
Typo: "To make matters worse, Greco-Roman tenements lacked both furnaces and fireplaces. Cooking was done over wood or charcoal braziers, which were also the only source of eat; since tenements lacked chimneys,..."
...the only source of HEAT;...
Without fire, you indeed don't have a source of heat to cook your food, so no brazier, no eat!
From what I've read on the subject, urban poor Romans generally didn't have access to eat inside their dwellings. Cooking facilities cost money and took up quite a bit of space, so having a kitchen in your house, not to mention having enough leisure to cook meals yourself or having dedicated slaves or servants to cook for you, was only affordable for relatively wealthy Romans. If you were poor, you bought prepared food.
Superficially, this seems inconsistent with the idea of the grain dole, since handing out grain to poor Romans seems to imply they had the means to grind and cook the grain. But it sounds like what actually happened was they brought their grain to a bakery and traded it and some money for an equivalent quantity of finished bread.
What is this with calling Christianity a peace-and-love religion? We think of 'love' as being the characteristic Christian virtue, but that's actually extremely recent; as late as the mid-twentieth century, the characteristic Christian virtue was thought to be obedience, no?
While we are talking about the content, let us remember that, especially among the elites (but not only?), Christianity was competing not just with by-the-numbers paganism and with egoism/Coliseum spectacles, but also with:
a) mystery religions, often with Eastern roots (Mithraism, worship of Isis),
b) various well thought-out philosophical systems (which often seem much more understandable to us than early Christianity, in part because our own philosophies are descended from them).
It's clear to a layman (though saying as much might provoke groans from scholars) that the state religion was 'worn-out'. The really interesting question is how Christianity managed to gain ascendacy over (a) and (b), partly no doubt by absorbing them (Isis -> regina coeli - > Virgin Mary and the assimilation of Aristotle's less interesting work being obvious examples).
"Love" is everywhere in early Christian scripture. Excluding what Scott cited, you have (probably the most famous verse in the New Testament):
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
More from the gospel of John:
John 15:12-13 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
John 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.
Or Mark 12:30-31: 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”
Or going earlier yet, to the letters pf Paul:
1 Corinthians 13 If I speak in the languages of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can understand all secrets and every form of knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing. 3 Even if I give away everything that I have and sacrifice myself,[a] but have no love, I gain nothing.
And on and on and on.
But this is all a very different kind of love from what we mean by the second half of peace-and-love, just like "peace" in Islam is very different from what we mean by the first half.
Not at all: What we mean by "love" is a direct decedent of what Paul ment by "ἀγάπη". These are foundational texts for western intellectual thought for millennia. They set the standard. I don't think you can find anyone more influential on the modern concept of "love" than Paul and the gospel writers.
There is plenty of what we would recognize as love before Christianity, attested in any Classical language. To what extent wasn’t Christianity simply *replacing* existing bonds of love (between parents and their children, to give an obvious, explicit example, not to mention things like love of country) by its own « love »?
You're shifting the goalpost. Obviously there were pre-Christian influences on the concept of "love". You claimed that early Christians didn't think of "love" as an important virtue. The evidence is overwhelmingly against this.
I can believe that, by selectively quoting scripture, we can get the impression that early Christians love-bombed the pagan world. That may be the case; I’d have to be convinced, but it’s an interesting take.
A different point is that love was the key early Christian *virtue*. That’s even less clear to me. Was it conceived of as a virtue, as in virtue ethics? It isn’t one of the cardinal virtues (but then neither was obedience, and that may have come later).
But let’s say that it was. How does it seem to go out the drain the moment Christianity is institutionalised? Were heretics burnt in the name of love? Perhaps they were (even if it would seem ironic to us) but that wasn’t my impression. Were Crusades seen at the time as labours of love?
Love is not one of the four cardinal virtues of classical paganism, but it is one of the three "theological virtues" of Christian tradition, "the greatest of these" even.
To love God and neighbor is portrayed as an adequate summary of Christ's moral teachings. Other parts of the New Testament go as far as to say that "God is love". Augustine, the most influential Christian theologian, commented on that passage by reversing the construction and saying that "love is God".
So yes, in theory, all of Christian morality is traditionally at least rationalized in terms of love.
Obviously Christians in fact experience and act on other states of mind with some regularity.
One of the three theological virtues is a kind of love, traditionally called "charity" (as in "faith, hope and charity").
The issue is: my impression (with which you may take issue) is that if you had asked any churchgoers pre-mid-20th-century (Catholic certainly, but also Protestants) what the distinctive Christian virtue was, you would have got "obedience", or at best "love, by which we mean the kind of love that leads to obedience". To say just "love" would have been considered dangerously namby-pamby; in many circles, it evidently still is.
So, is the case being made that the strong, recent tilt towards 'love' (at least in popular Christianity and/or Christian apologetics) is in fact rotundly, unassailably sound from a historical perspective, and that centuries III-XX had it all wrong in spite of having the bible in front of them (well, for most of that period, not really, outside a small elite, but that's another matter)? I suppose that would be excellent news, but it sounds a bit suspect.
And yet, if you consult the source texts it is clearly true! Love is much more emphasized in Christianity than obedience is. A search of Strong's concordance indicates that, in the New Testament, the words agape (love) and agapeo (to love) appear a total of 259 times, while the words hupokoe (obedience) and hupokoeo (to obey) appear a total of 36 times. (As for Caritas (charity), that is just the Latin translation of agape.)
Furthermore, as stated above the two greatest commandments according to Christ are phrased in terms of love rather than obedience. That doesn't mean that obedience to God (and sometimes other humans) plays no role in the system. But it is not modelled along the lines of a fearful, slavish submission, but rather a filial, loving relationship to the Father, as modelled by Christ as the Son. A lot of this is pretty explicit in the letters of St. Paul...
Although this certainly does not mean that early Christians would have subscribed to the mushy modern idea that "love is love", so that romantic love justifies adultery, divorce, incest, or whatever else it is you want to do. In Greek, "eros" is a totally different word from "agape", and in general the early Christians adhered to a much stricter standard of sexual morality, as reviewed in the main post.
Links if you want to check my numbers:
https://biblehub.com/greek/26.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5218.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/5219.htm
Well, let's be honest: "love is love" is not generally used to justify adultery or divorce, let alone incest - it is used to justify (toleration of) homosexuality, which Romans 1:26-27 does condemn.
Let's focus on agape, at any rate. The word does exist in Greek before Christianity (indeed the verb form is already attested in Homer; I took Liddell and Scott out of the shelf to confirm).
What I can see here:
- There is a current movement to go back to the texts and recover "love" as the main virtue, as emphasized in early Christianity. This is clearly something recent, mid-XXth century perhaps (or at least my impression that it very much is hasn't been disputed so far). It's perhaps less self-aware than Protestantism was, but it's comparable in so far as it is a return to the text and a claimed return to historical origins. There's clearly something to it, but it's also a return (if it is one) due in part to the surrounding environment, and not just to "well, why don't we go and read what the text actually says, oh, by golly, how could anyone have missed that".
- Christianity, historically, does not look at all in the main as a manifestation of anything the man on the street would have recognized as love; the relation seems to be as non-obvious as that between Islam and peace (I know, I know, while it's one and the same semitic root, "submission" can be a better translation, etc.).
- Was "love" really the main message of early Christianity, in a practical sense? Would an educated pagan have said: "why, this is a rather lovey-dovey bunch" or would he (or exceptionally she) have said: "Christians preach love for their neighbor, but, in fact, they dissolve the traditional familial bonds of love and replace them by those of their group (Luke 14:26); same for love of friends - their group replaces them - and even love of country"? I'm sure the latter sort of observation was made (though I have nothing at hand) but I'm not sure of whether the former sort was a thing. Or were Christians perceived in another way entirely? (The last anti-Christian allusion I read was in Apuleius, and I don't remember anything about love in it, but then it may not have been an anti-Christian allusion to begin with.)
>agape
Does anyone else get an "insect colony" vibe from the term and the concept?
I really don’t know where you get the impression that Christians before the 20th century thought obedience was the primary virtue.
I am a practicing trad-adjacent Catholic who primarily reads/relies on spiritual/devotional books published prior to 1900 (often significantly prior) and I *assure you* that love of God and neighbor is now, was then, and always will be the central founding virtue of Christianity. When asked to give the greatest commandment, “to love God, and to love your neighbor as yourself” was how Jesus responded. This has been believed and taught since the days of the early church, and is reflected in the writings of the saints from Augustine to Aquinas to St. Catherine of Siena to Teresa of Avila to Therese of Lisieux to a thousand and one lesser lights. This has been so abundantly clearly taught down through the centuries that I am frankly baffled as to how you could have missed it.
You are correct that obedience to the teachings of the Church/Jesus is seen as one of the natural consequences of love (if one loves Jesus, one obeys his commands), but you’re getting the directionality *entirely* backwards.
Would you say that obedience is now emphasized (in some non-Catholic denominations, or in most Catholic churches, or in man-on-the-street popular Christianity) much less than it used to be, and/or ought to be? (I am well aware that this is a much weaker statement.) Is obedience one of the *main* natural consequences of love, to the point that it is a test for whether someone truly loves God?
Introduction to the Devout Life, first published 1609:
https://ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life/devout_life.iii.i.html
"But, in fact, all true and living devotion presupposes the love of God; — and indeed it is neither more nor less than a very real love of God, though not always of the same kind; for that Love one while shining on the soul we call grace, which makes us acceptable to His Divine Majesty; — when it strengthens us to do well, it is called Charity; — but when it attains its fullest perfection, in which it not only leads us to do well, but to act carefully, diligently, and promptly, then it is called Devotion. The ostrich never flies,— the hen rises with difficulty, and achieves but a brief and rare flight, but the eagle, the dove, and the swallow, are continually on the wing, and soar high; — even so sinners do not rise towards God, for all their movements are earthly and earthbound. Well-meaning people, who have not as yet attained a true devotion, attempt a manner of flight by means of their good actions, but rarely, slowly and heavily; while really devout men rise up to God frequently, and with a swift and soaring wing. In short, devotion is simply
a spiritual activity and liveliness by means of which Divine Love works in us, and causes us to work briskly and lovingly; and just as charity leads us to a general practice of all God’s Commandments, so devotion leads us to practise them readily and diligently. And therefore we cannot call him who neglects to observe all God’s Commandments either good or devout, because in order to be good, a man must be filled with love, and to be devout, he must further be very ready and apt to perform the deeds of love. And forasmuch as devotion consists in a high degree of real love, it not only makes us ready, active, and diligent in following all God’s Commands, but it also excites us to be ready and loving in performing as many good works as possible, even such as are not enjoined upon us, but are only matters of counsel or inspiration. Even as a man just recovering from illness, walks only so far as he is obliged to go, with a slow and weary step, so the converted sinner journeys along as far as God commands him but slowly and wearily, until he attains a true spirit of devotion, and then, like a sound man, he not only gets along, but he runs and leaps in the way of God’s Commands, and hastens gladly along the paths of heavenly counsels and inspirations. The difference between love and devotion is just that which exists between fire and flame; — love being a spiritual fire which becomes devotion when it is fanned into a flame;— and what devotion adds to the fire of love is that flame which makes it eager, energetic and diligent, not merely in obeying God’s Commandments, but in fulfilling His Divine Counsels and inspirations."
Do you have any evidence for this assertion that "obedience" was ever considered the primary Christian virtue?
I think we are dealing with weaker and stronger versions of this assertion.
- It's clear that, in Aquinas's closely argued and ordered system, obedience, while the greatest of the moral virtues (see, e.g., https://www.english.op.org/godzdogz/the-life-of-virtue-obedience/) is a lesser virtue than charity (agape) (Question 104, article 3).
- It is still my impression that there was a cultural shift in the mid-20th century from obedience to love, and from "obey authority" to what a secular person would frame as "obey the dictates of your conscience, rather than those of a tyrant or of an oppressive crowd" (though really the "conscience" here would be dictates emanating from God's love). Bonhoeffer is an obvious referent here, but there's Barth as well.
The shift also seems to have affected Catholicism, at least as the average Catholic sees it: thus (here I am proceeding from memory, please pillory me if this is wrong) some people are baffled when hearing that the first thing that John Paul II would ask about this or that order or monastery was whether the priests, monks or nuns were obedient, whereas that was a completely natural question from a Pope (or any person up in the hierarchy really) from his country and generation.
These are obviously not new observations, but I am having a surprisingly hard time (meaning: it's not immediate on Google and I have actual work to do, though I am honestly interested in the question) showing that they are completely unoriginal.
The infinite positive utility of going to heaven is used to juice the Prisoner's Dilemma calculation in favour of always cooperating.
Christianity's hack is that it encourages people to put in effort towards socially optimal goals even when those goals have bad payoffs for the individual.
The historically successful flavours of Christianity are fundamentally optimistic: God loves us and wants us to succeed even though he sometimes challenges us. Their theory of evil is that evil exists as an opportunity for us to get better.
Mediaeval Cat got there before me with 1 Corinthians. The problem is that the modern notion of love is something soft and gooey, undemanding and fluffy pink clouds and sparkles that is all happy-happy and about filling needs and satisfying desires.
That is not love as a Christian virtue. Love is a burning furnace which tries us as gold in the fire and burns away the dross. Those who invoke love to Christians with "Aren't you guys supposed to be about love?" mean the soft gooey modern love which makes no demands but instead twists itself to follow the shibboleths of the day and surrender to the demands made upon it.
As an aside, if I see one more glib unthinking "Mary = Isis and Isis = Mary!" throwaway reference, I'll - be very unloving in both the secular *and* Christian sense. It continues to amaze me, though really it shouldn't, that the anti-Catholic polemic of the Protestant past gets a new coat of paint as the anti-Christian propaganda of today.
I didn't say "=", I said "->" (with an intermediate step). How could part of the Marian cult (I think this has no negative connotations, and at any rate none are meant) not be an assimilation of popular veneration of Isis? They are literally both "regina caeli". I'm honestly asking.
The influence may have been stronger or weaker than some think, but I can't figure out how it couldn't be there. https://www.columbia.edu/~sf2220/Thing/web-content/Pages/meg2.html
@deiseach pray for me I’m going in
We think that they have nothing to do with each other because we *have the receipts.* We don’t have, like, 2020s level of documentation of the thinking of the early Church Fathers, but we have *a lot,* and *nothing* that we have suggests such a connection.
Mary as a real person who existed is well-attested to. The veneration that grew up around her was directly related to her role as the mother of Jesus.
The very earliest Christians were mostly Jews and had an absolute abhorrence of any hint of polytheism.
After those very earliest days, you can trace the development of her veneration from the Gospels through the early church Fathers (their writings pick up just about right after the New Testament leaves off) as well as through every ecumenical council starting with the first in Nicea, where reverence given her as the mother of Jesus is incorporated into the very first creed of the church.
Bishops and theologians of the day were *not shy* in calling out pagan influences, and again, we have a fairly large volume of their writings.
There just isn’t any there there. All of the “arguments” for it boil down to “vibes, man.” The most I can say is “sure, yes, there has always been and always will be a universal human impulse to venerate woman as mother.” This Isis (or Ishtar, or Eostar, or whomever — specifics vary) = Mary emerged in the modern age (although the impulse is probably rooted in the usual anti-Catholicism) usually by the same sorts of people who like to titter about daddy sky god. I am willing to except present company as honestly mistaken, but for the most part it is a lazy and deeply ignorant swipe not usually worth the time necessary to take it down.
Well, I may be honestly mistaken, but I can't tell how I would be *dis*honestly mistaken: I see nothing wrong in some degree of syncretism (which would be far from a rarity anyhow).
With that proviso: say you were to speak to the (mostly Jewish, as you say) entourage of a first-century woman called Maryam or Miriam, mother of Yehoshua or Yeshu. If you were to tell them of someone called "regina caeli", what would they think of, if *not* paganism, and Isis more particularly? (Well, there is also the more distant pagan deity in Jeremiah...).
It is simply difficult for me to imagine that title as resulting from anything other than some degree of folk syncretism, which became acceptable in due time, and became official later (not at Nicea, but later, at Ephesus).
EDIT: Just learned that "Stella Maris" was also an epithet of Isis. I mean!
The title “Queen of Heaven” comes from the fact that Jesus, for Christians, is the King of Heaven — it’s all through the Bible. In ancient Jewish custom, the mother of the king was the queen, hence Mary as the Queen of Heaven. It also relates to the woman crowned with 12 stars described in the book of Revelation; the book was written in the first century and we have records of the figure being interpreted as Mary as early as the third or fourth century.
Your reference to Ephesus suggests to me that you’re not grasping the theological arguments at the time very well. There was an argument over whether Mary was the mother of *God* or only the mother of *Jesus.* That’s what was settled at Ephesus. Mary is (obviously) described as the mother of Jesus throughout the Bible, and her role as his mother was important enough to be included in the Nicene Creed, adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325.
It’s really not such a distinctive concept that it merits being so tightly linked for you in this way. There are innumerable historical figures across almost every culture called the “Queen of Blankity Blank,” and “heaven” as a concept is also not so unusual that it’s truly and totally unsurprising to me that more than one culture should have come up with it.
There certainly what we call “baptized” pagan elements in Christian worship. Certain feast days and some of the customs surrounding them, for instance. We don’t really have much trouble incorporating practices like that. We’ll adopt/incorporate all sorts of things. This aspect of Mariology, however, simply isn’t one of them. It just isn’t. (Probably a deep dive into a litany of Marian titles will come up with some wild stuff though!)
Stella Maris as a title is much, much more recent than Queen of Heaven. I thought it was Renaissance; a quick Wikipedia check (fwiw) tells me it’s medieval, probably due to a medieval typo, and then we ran with it. This tracks with my priors on how willing we generally are to adopt in wacky influences, and usually be very upfront with it when we do. Anyway I don’t think Stella Maris was secret Isis influence emerging in year 12bumpetyWhatever.
Two seconds suffice to find (thanks Wikipedia) that "Stella Maris" was well-established by the 7th century. The alternative explanation is that St Jerome mistranslated or misunderstood something (in which case of course the phrase is even older). It happens I suppose, though it would be an amazing coincidence - and not something that increases confidence in St Jerome's skills.
(For later periods, where we have more documentation, we have evidence of obvious syncretism, and also of resistance to syncretism within the Church. I'm thinking in particular of the Spanish conquest of the Americas - churches on mesoamerican pyramids, churches made with mortar from sacred Incan sand, veneration of images of Mary and Jesus that clearly incorporate elements of precolumbine and even African deities. I don't see how this is embarassing - if anything, the priests that wanted a little more absorption and bridging between cultures and got severely disciplined for it come across as sympathetic figures (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blas_Valera).)
I know that the mother of God vs. mother of Jesus was the issue at Ephesus; I said that that's when 'Queen of Heaven' was definitely established because I looked it up.
Can you recommend any books or essays on Christian love as you describe it here (burning furnace etc.)? I'd also be interested in knowing how the story of Jesus' life and death relates to that love.
"Heaven, a World of Love" by Jonathan Edwards
...Probably because those religions were worse. It doesn't matter how well thought-out your philosophical system is if it's too complicated for the plebs to understand. Not to mention that they lacked the ability to efficiently propagate.
Also, I feel like you're being nitpicky with the definition of love here. Is it not love for God that drives Christians to sacrifice everything for the sake of the collective? Is it not love for humanity that drives them to convert heathens by any means necessary?
I'm not sure that Epicureanism or Stoicism are intrinsically more complicated than the mysteries of the faith; Christian theology can be intricate and, well, mysterious. You may be completely right that neither Epicureanism or Stoicism had a better strategy than "convince people who can read, by means of careful argument, couched perhaps in a very long poem". But did this have to be the case? Christianity was also based on and propagated in part through written material (at least at first; once you had a clergy, it became much less important or even undesirable for the, well, plebs to read the texts). What is it that made Christianity more appealing, even when persecuted, than, say, "read Epicurus but if your friends are really into Isis let them do their thing"?
(Perhaps: say we are second-century Epicureans. What should be our growth strategy?)
>Also, I feel like you're being nitpicky with the definition of love here. Is it not love for >God that drives Christians to sacrifice everything for the sake of the collective? Is it >not love for humanity that drives them to convert heathens by any means necessary?
But then this does sound very much like a cult: hijacking a human emotion (love) and using it for group cohesion (including: cutting off other ties of love) and to justify some rather non-loving behavior, all while waving the banner of love. But I do not think later Christians really waved that banner, even if I am half-convinced, perhaps, that early Christians did.
> But then this does sound very much like a cult
...Well yes, obviously it is a cult. Even Scott is calling it a cult. The point is that it's the most powerful and optimized cult. Morality is irrelevant to its effectiveness.
I think you're laboring under the false assumption that love is always a force for good, when that is very far from the case. ...I unfortunately learned that the hard way.
> What is this with calling Christianity a peace-and-love religion?
You can just read the old vs new testiment; I think jesus words as written are... boring; the moral lessons, trivail; and theres a hint of causal mentions of slavery without a plan to end it. The old testimate says to take sex slaves. Mohumamd was a war lord. Buddism is about enteral suffering and has demons while apparently being ok with indias cast system. One of these is not like the other.
Christianity was probably a nessery stage in our moral development; but most of the past is very cruel. Even if it seems like a trivial babystep.
I'm not sure it's as simple as that.
- The Old Testament is a collection of writings by different authors across centuries, ranging from, yes, A. God told the Israelites to take sex slaves/righteous Pinchas drove a spear through that naughty mixed couple composed of an Israelite man and a filthy Midianite woman who were **having sex** (gulp) to B. common-sense proverbs/agnostic musings/far gentler porn. Some of the prophets are primarily concerned with their own people's moral failings, including unfairness towards the orphan and the widow.
- Buddhism is about *getting out* of the cycle of eternal suffering. And is it really ok with India's caste system? I thought Ambedkar had converted to Buddhism in part precisely because (the version of) Buddhism (he adhered to) wasn't.
As far as I know, the Buddha advocated a more liberal approach to caste distinctions, at the margin, but did not criticize the existence of caste in general. Ambedkar reinvented Indian Buddhism in the 20th century as a kind of modernist, social justice oriented religion.
> The Old Testament is a collection of writings by different authors across centuries
I have a pretty negative view of the incest apologism, general implied age of marriage, consistent wars, as well I dont think you could find a passage in the old testimemt thats as coherent as a modern 5 year old's take on slavery being bad. Overall, I do believe we are just growing culturally over the eras quite drastically, and that you should have at least a nuanced take on the break down of the bicameral mind and related thoerys
The past was truly horrible, the old writers seem deeply confused about travail things, it wasn't until rome people started to seem *able* to paint in 3d, homer describes emotions as the influence of gods.
Culturally, spiritually, morally humanity is growing.
I think you're being a bit arrogant here. The ideas have somehow struck around. They might be worth taking seriously. At the very least, they influence a lot of people, many of whom have thought long and hard about their beliefs and foundational texts.
At the very least, please don't round it off to stupidity.
I perfectly comfy with being arrogant; but its *because* yung-ian(/Petersons metaphorical truth) style readings of the bible a serious matter that the truth matters; a "social proof" of a bunch of people saying the emperor has great clothes isn't worth anything.
Whats the moral truth in lot's dauthers? A plain reading with modern sensibility around unreliable narration suggests lolita-style coping.
The god of the old testament is cruel, petty; *unworthy of worship*. This drastically improves with the new testament and jesus; but he's still just some guy, "dont stone prostitutes" may have been revolutionary at the time, its not timelessly divine.
Cite the text, not the communities it spawn(Im quite fond of what mark quakers left in america) or modern retelling/lawyerly manipulation of the text; theres isn't much there on morals, and I will not worship the demiurge or kiplings "god of the marketplace". I prefer paradise lost satan to the hollow empty idols.
> it wasn't until rome people started to seem *able* to paint in 3d
In the tombs of the kings of Macedon (figure 4th century BC) there are paintings in true perspective; one of the Rape of Persephone is pretty well known. See if you think this has three dimensions: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Hades_abducting_Persephone.jpg
1 Corinthians 13: 1-13
"1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
The problem is, the modern notion of love is something soft and gooey. Something easy and giving and never demanding and wonderful that is all pink sparkles and happy-happy. Those who invoke Christians about "aren't you guys supposed to love?" mean "love that is soft and gives in to all my demands and makes no demands of me in turn, love that agrees with the shibboleths of the age".
Love is not like that as a Christian virtue, it is a fiery furnace that burns away the dross and tries us as gold.
Paul certainly had a way with words. Michel Houellebecq writes somewhere that reading Paul feels like he is standing right behind you breathing over your shoulder. How many texts written close to 2000 years ago can still give such reading experiences.
It does help that this particular set of ancient writings became the inspiration for a huge amount of later writings that taught our generations how to read. It might feel different if we lived in a society whose writing traditions were shaped by a different set of ancients, and then those ancients might seem like the extra good writers to us.
Reminds me how you often hear that the Quran is supposed to be the most beautiful Arab ever written.
I don't know any of the language, so I can't judge.
The first epistle of John outright affirms Love *is* God. As far as virtues, Paul discusses the highest possible virtues, those that have God as their natural end, and unambiguously affirms the greatest of these is Love. When Jesus explains his ministry to Nicodemus his revelation is that God's love for the Cosmos was what merited the Incarnation. It's really the central point of early Christian thinking.
Regarding Christianity's ascendency over Mithraism, I think the former was just much more family-friendly. Mithraism was a [literally] underground mystery cult, largely spread by soldiers and merchants. There's little to no mention of women in Mithraism, and initiation was complex and limited — more reminiscent of Freemasonry than Christianity.
The Isis cult had a greater variety of members but they appeared to have fewer meaningful commitments than Christianity — you could worship other gods and and the moral code appeared to be pretty implicit compared to the explicit moral commandments of Christianity.
Maybe it was the other way round, and the early Christianity was all about love, and obedience was added as a greatest virtue after it became a state religion. I mean, it seems obvious why the kings would have wanted it that way.
Maybe, but there are plenty of prooftexts highlighting the importance of obedience in the NT.
St. Augustine's writings around 400 CE, which were foundational to Christianity perhaps second only to the Bible, focus on love more than on any other virtue. I can't recall any famous Christian theologians focusing on obedience.
I think you've mixed up some numbers at the end
40 AD: Suppose you start with 1,000 Christians
300 AD: about 6 million
400: 40 million
with 5 million Hellenized Jews and Judaized Romans, so "leaving 55 million more to explain" should probably be 35 million
Thanks, fixed (I think it was eventually 60 million by the time Rome fell, but I should have introduced that number if I was going to use it).
Request for a review (by Scott!) of Walker Percy's "The Message in the Bottle." Which is at least interested in the closing question (and many others).
Why wouldn't Jews live all over? What would stop them from moving around the Roman Empire in pursuit of whatever business or personal opportunities they wanted? The destruction of the Temple was hardly the first exile; Jews were scattered about during the earlier Assyrian and Babylonian captivities and the account of Jews in Egypt probably reflects some historical reality, too.
To compare to Mormons, according to Google, about 2.2 million Mormons live in Utah, but 6.8 million live in the US as a whole, and there are apparently over 17 million worldwide. There are a lot of Mormons in Utah, but the world outside of Utah is really big!
Why would 5/6 of Jews live outside Israel? We certainly wouldn't expect 5/6 of Gauls in this period to live outside Gaul, or 5/6 of Egyptians to live outside Egypt.
I would accept the Babylonian captivity as an excuse if the excess Jews were in Babylon, but they seemed to mostly be in the West.
Impoverished, harassed area? Of course most areas are, and only some groups end up being majority-emigrant. Still, it's not *that* rare: take Ireland, or the Guyanese at some point (no longer, apparently).
Actually, what are commonly hypothesized reasons for a group becoming majority-emigrant? One obvious common factor is "there are opportunities elsewhere", but that can't be the only thing, or else, again, the experience would be more common.
The Babylonian captivity only involved the very elite Jews. The Babylonians moved the aristocracy of the regions they conquered to reduce chances of mutiny. The remainder also fled, but only after failed revolt, and they fled to Egypt. The latter chapters of 2 Kings go into this.
Wait, was the large Alexandrian Jewish population descended to any significant extent from a Babylonian-exile-time migration? Never heard of that.
Not quite. There were two waves of exile to Babylonia. The first was the exile of the elites. (Described in the book of Esther as הגולה אשר הגלתה עם יחניה מלך יהודה.) The second was the exile that occurred at the time of the destruction of the temple after the rebellion. The agricultural workers who had been allowed to stay in Israel flee to Egypt after the assassination of Gedaliah. (Kings 24 speaks about the first exile, Kings 25:11 speaks about the second wave of exile to Babylonia, and Kings 25:26 describes the exile to Egypt.) The entire episode is discussed in more detail in Jeremiah, where it seems that the city-dwellers were taken to Babylon and the farmers were allowed to stay. (City/rural, not elite/common.) The farmers then fled en mass to Egypt, against the advice of Jeremiah. They then assimilated almost instantly, much to Jeremiah's dismay.
Instead of thinking about particular migratory events, think of it through the lense of ethnogenesis. Large scale migrations happened all the time. But most of the time the groups that end up in the same place melt together in the same group. If 5/6ths of Gauls found themselves in Egypt somehow they would either become Egyptian or Egypt would become Gaul. Jews have always been unique because they were particularly likely to stick to their own ethnic identity in foreign lands, at least in comparison to gentiles.
This holds true today. Irishmen, Germans, and British Americans blended together into one generic white American identity, but Jews retained a distinct identity.
Besides Gauls and Egyptians you should also think about Phoenicians and Greeks. Admittedly, all these cases are slightly different. Still, one could argue that at a somewhat earlier time the vast majority of Phoenicians also lived in the West (and were usually referred to as Carthaginians). Similarly, the majority of Greeks lived outside mainland Greece (in AD 200 perhaps roughly 2/3).
Natural population growth and the stickiness of Judiasm as opposed to other religions? This is an era where the Mediterranean is very connected, and so you're going to see a lot of migration by merchants/traders/etc. And the Jews seems well-positioned to take advantage of that, given that they actually form a distinct, stable group in a way that seems otherwise to be quite rare in the ancient Mediterranean. And Jewish merchant communities would have growth potential that the main Jewish population, which is more or less going to be limited by the carrying capacity of Judea itself, won't. Run this for a century or two, add in some chaos in Judea that makes being in Syria or Sparta or Spain more attractive, and you end up with a lot of (more or less) Jews living in the broader Mediterranean.
The question is when and why did the Jews start forming merchant communities? The Bible doesn’t much mention sea faring (although it does in some places like Jonah) and instead does talk a lot about the importance of living in the Promised Land.
It's actually in more places than you'd think, if you're looking for it. There's a book called The Great Sea by David Abulafia which traces the maritime history of the Mediterranean, and it goes into some detail, including a lot of biblical references. I can't speak exactly to when, but why is probably some combination of profit and "I'm leaving the Promised Land because we keep getting invaded, and it turns out that being in (say) Egypt makes it easy to do profitable trades with those still in the Promised Land".
I actually tried reading that book once but found it pretty confusing (it jumps from one thing to another a lot) and I found the writer irritatingly opinionated. I actually don’t remember exactly how anymore.
Syrians also established communities throughout the Roman Empire but besides Jews and Syrians there was no other group in the Empire that took part in such massive internal migration. Greeks were already widespread before roman conquest and it's unlikely their numbers grew during the Principate. On the contrary there are reports of Greece becoming depopulated.
"Jew" denotes an (ethnno) religious group.
"Egyptian" or "Gaul" denotes location within the Roman Empire here more than ethnicity or religion.
"Gaul" is a geographically huge region (for the day) with bad trade routes, so even if Gauls moved far from their birth towns, they could easily still be in Gaul, and "Gaulish" wasn't the kind of coherent ethnic or religious identity that people cared about preserving anymore than "Ohioan" is today. Ohioans can move freely about the country, but once they settle in Wisconsin or wherever, they ceaase being Ohioans.
By contrast, Judea is a tiny province on the edge of an extremely well established ancient trade region where people moved around all the time (look at the history of Greek mathematicians studying in Egypt, for example), and "Jew" is a fairly stable identity that people retained even in their new homes.
Because there were Jewish traders and businessmen who were doing well or looking for new opportunities? The Gauls were not exactly at the level of civilization to be doing that, much as I hate to admit it to my French friends, and the Egyptians...dunno. I don't know enough about Roman Egypt to say.
A lot of Mormons worldwide are simply locals that converted to Mormonism wherever they already lived, rather than being actual expats from Utah. Long-distance missionary operations are much more straightforward then they were 2000 years ago
I wonder if Christianity got to 5-10% of the Roman population by the time Constantine took it big simply because they actually bothered to evangelize among anyone who would listen and were primarily urban (which meant they could talk to a lot of people in close proximity). I remember one of the old Quora essays from Tim O'Neill talking about how most new cults were elite-only affairs with restrictive membership, unlike Christianity with its willingness to convert anyone.
It's interesting how the Mormon comparison feels like a relic of the 1990s now from Stark. Conversion rates appear to have slowed a lot (although they started downplaying the conversion stats eventually in public), and since it's onerous to get your name off the membership rolls a lot of folks are still technically "converts" even if they stopped going three months after baptism.
"It isn't easy to get your name off the membership rolls."
I've heard this a lot and I don't know if it is that relevant. How many millions of religious people throughout history we're only nominally religious, going through the motions, and still got recorded as part of one religion or another by historians and demographers? It all seems to even out.
"The conversion rate has dropped."
Presumably the conversion rate was not entirely steady throughout the early centuries of Christianity? And had peaks and troughs? Perhaps we will have to wait another 50 years to see if the Mormon conversion rate is going to remain this low.
I'd say it's a big deal if (as Stark has claimed) that the LDS Church is going to become one of the new Great Religions like Christianity or Islam. What's the significance of claiming tons of conversions if they're not actually believers? It's hollow strength.
"Perhaps we will have to wait another 50 years to see if the Mormon conversion rate is going to remain this low."
We're coming up on 20-30 years since the elevated rates in the 1990s, so we'll see. They probably could turn it around a bit if they got better at conversions in Africa (where the Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses are beating them soundly).
It all evens out because we have no idea how many people who are listed in Wikipedia as Christians and Muslims are true believers. I think the qualification for being considered a member of a religion, according to demographers, is extremely low. And religions become great world religions by meeting that low demographic standard.
So, I'm a Christian. And I want to say, first, that I unfortunately accept Scott's characterization of me as very far from morally heroic in the way that early Christians were.
But I also want to say that I think that *somewhat* more current Christians at least approximate that description than he may think. I can think of a number of my Christian friends and acquaintances who I have reason to think might very likely display moral heroism given the least opportunity; and who perhaps already do, in a quiet way.
Why not all of us? Well, perhaps it's something something luxury breeds softness. We haven't been really persecuted or subjected to plague for some time. Maybe those stresses are necessary for the sterner virtues. Still, it can't be wholly irrelevant that many Christians tended to want to prioritize social gathering over isolation during COVID. (One elderly woman from my church, who came back to church the very week it was allowed, said "Christians are supposed to be courageous!" One might find her behavior annoying just like the ancient Romans tended to, but I do think it was courageous.)
...Maybe all it takes to kill Christianity is one actually deadly pandemic.
Like Smallpox or the Black Death?
I'm just considering a potential failure mode, that's all. Don't labor under the assumption that your religion is invincible. Nothing is.
I'm just trying to understand the failure mode in question. What would be an example of an "actually deadly pandemic"?
I do, of course, believe that my religion is invincible (it's more of a corollary of my other beliefs about it than an assumption, per se). But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in hearing possible ways one might think of to... vince? ... it.
If it is deadly enough, blatant disregard of spread-prevention measures in the name of "courage" would ravage Christian communities, to the point where the only surviving members would be the people who are least faithful. Of course, it would need to be a really deadly disease, so deadly that it wouldn't be able to actually spread effectively unless it was something stupid like a zombie virus...
On second thought, what ends up killing "Christianity" will probably be far more benign: people twisting the faith into something unrecognizable while keeping the name. I'd argue that's already in the process of happening right now, with the cultural revolt started by Trump.
So, you don't have any examples of such a deadly disease? Would this be a disease without precedent, or perhaps something purely hypothetical?
Yes, cultural capture is always a challenge. Needless to say, one can go back much farther than Trump, to Constantine, to find the first *famous* (arguable) example, but even earlier to the gnostics to find others.
I don't know that Trumpism is really that universal, though, you know? For example, the African church is very vibrant, and I'm just not sure how prone it is to being captured by Donald Trump. I suppose we shall see.
Nope. It began when Christianity became the default, when it wasn't a difficult and meaningful choice to be a Christian. That's well over a thousand years earlier.
Christianity survived the two plague pandemics both of which are at the very top of the list of "Most Lethal Events In Human History" (It's unclear whether the 6th century or 14th century one was the worst). Is there any reason to think we're going to have something come along significantly worse than those?
"I'm just considering a potential failure mode, that's all. Don't labor under the assumption that your religion is invincible. Nothing is."
So, your argument isn't invincible either?
By the way, something far closer to reality to your almost 100% mortality rate imaginary plague, would be a modern state systematically supressing and persecuting Christianity, killing tens of millions of Christians under the guise of being enemies of the regime... just like the USSR... Right?
Imagine if Germany today was a Jewish majority country; that's what happened with Russia.
The difference is that Christianity is so absurdly wide-spread that a few countries actively committing genocide against them wouldn't remove their global influence. That's what makes Judaism so vulnerable: their total population being so low and the limitation of being an ethnic religion makes it much more possible to erase their presence from the world.
So... your position assumes that the rechristianization of Russia to Russian Orthodoxy was caused by missionaries outside Russia that somehow acted in the interests of the Russian national Church?
Also, I never talked about the "influence" of Christianity. I mean people adhering en masse to it.
Your point about Judaism was not contended by my first comment and is therefore irrelevant.
But it is worth noting that judaism is not ethnic in the strict sense.There were times in history where judaism was a highly proselityzing religion and even nowadays outsiders can convet.
A better descriptor in lieu of ethnic would be "communal" meaning that if you are *part* of that community, by birth or conversion, you are into Judaism.
But focus on the first paragraph.
Um, the USSR's Great Purge (which probably killed a bit under a million people) was directed against people *inside* the regime - communists, civil servants, cultural figures that had managed to find a modus vivendi in the new regime. There was also a completely avoidable famine, there were deportations (often of non-Christian groups, such as Crimean Tatars), more purges, and so forth. The thought that the CCCP decided to kill millions or tens of millions of Christians *for being Christian* in a MechaDiocletian persecution is a figment I hadn't heard recently.
The Eastern Orthodox Church reached some sort of stable state under Stalin (https://aeon.co/essays/how-stalin-enlisted-the-orthodox-church-to-help-control-ukraine).
Also there were other societies where communism was more effective at accomlishing de-Christianization than in Russia. Estonia, East Germany and Czechia are all among the least religious societies in the world today.
Complete side question: in the case of Czechia, how much does that have to do with a cultural memory of having been forced back into Catholicism?
i would guess that it has a ton to do with it, personally.
It does, and most of urban Czechia was religiously lukewarm by the 1930s already. Very rural areas + southern Moravia were still strictly Catholic, though.
I was writing a more nuanced response to you comment, but your assertion that things were sort of okayish for the Curch in the whole USSR regime because in one specific time period it was so, is of a degree of ignorance that reaches the point of direspect for all the millions of Christians killed in the soviet regime.
And you attack a strawman since I didn't say people were killed just by being christians. No, there was usually some other excuse attached to it, just like the holocaust also tried to justify ethnic cleansing by blaming the minorities for some sort of evil.
A little openess to what you don't know would render profitable the reading of this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
Some quick facts:
1914: 55.173 Churches
1980: 6.893 Churches
1914: 550 monasteries and 475 convents
1980: 18 monasteries
But ok, it's gotta be a figment.
Destroying churches does not equate killing Christians - and killing people who happened to be baptized is very different from finding excuses to kill off a minority (be it Armenian Christians or European Jews or what have you).
Exactly because the Church was not a minority before the revolution and because (but *not only* because of) the communists saw links between Christians and the previous tsarist regime a good portion was systematically killed and again, since the Orthodox were not a minority, their "portion" is huge.
Yes, I also found that part odd. I couldn't help but think of my Sunday School teacher from when I was a kid, who is against homosexuality but who I'm sure would gladly lay down her life to save a gay man. I know a lot of Christians who are like that.
I think the people who are most excited about Christianity tend to live lives as virtuous as the people who are most excited about Effective Altruism. But Scott's friend group is near the center of Effective Altruism but only on the edges of Christianity, so he sees unusually high representations of enthusiastic Effective Altruists and of barely-practicing Christians.
Right, and there's the whole culture war where Christianity is still the religion of the red tribe.
"luxury breeds softness"
I always thought that part of this softness is also the tendency to forgive everyone (except the main outgroup of course), let go of death sentences, let everyone marry or not marry anyone they want, gather funds to help people in faraway lands. Things that two hundred years ago seemed ridiculous, but not any more, cause we can afford it. It would be a stretch to call it courage, though it may take a little courage (but not much) to let dangerous criminals go and suchlike. Luxury probably gives people some leeway to act virtuously without needing a lot of self-sacrificing courage. Is this a correct model? Like the finding that soldiers in world wars did better both physically and emotionally if they were from well-off families. A well nurtured soldier with good mental health is probably also more likely to do brave things, because he can afford it (citation needed). So I'm reluctant to think that you need hard life to be highly virtuous. Though of course when life is very easy then your courage doesn't show, cause there's no need for you to sacrifice yourself... I notice I'm a bit confused about this topic.
I too am confused by it. I was mostly just hypothesizing. Anecdotally, the church in places today where persecution exists still tend to better resemble the early church in various ways.
I think Christians may be more likely to fight back against real and perceived negative moral influences and selfishness because of their membership in a tradition which started with shining examples of such rebellions, in the same way that Americans are more likely to have a problem with authority and to rebel against both real and perceived injustice and oppression. That is, the trait is more common among members because of their founding narrative, but neither universal among them nor restricted to them.
Certainly no claim was intended that Christians have a monopoly on virtue or heroism (and, as you say, it is certainly not universal among us).
Right, I'm not Christian. (In that I don't believe in God.) But I've got several religious friends who I feel the same about... potential moral heroes. Most of them are women which at least rhymes with some of the post.
This.
Tertullian's analysis was that "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." From my understanding that's been born out last century in China, where even if you take the lowball figures from the Chinese government, the growth of Christians has easily outstripped the 40% per decade during and since the Cultural Revolution.
Ancient historian Bret Deveraux has written about the legal status of women in the ancient societies he knows of - the rights of Roman women were a lot better than you/Salzman describes here. They could not participate politically, such as voting or holding office, but otherwise, an adult woman could have the same rights as a man because both were of citizen status. I recommend this series starting with:
https://acoup.blog/2023/07/21/collections-how-to-roman-republic-101-part-i-spqr/
Also most relevant:
https://acoup.blog/2023/10/06/collections-how-to-roman-republic-part-v-the-courts/
ctrl-f "wom" brings up passages like:
"Now Roman women remained under all circumstances shut out of the ‘public’ functions in society: they could not vote, hold office, or participate in public trials. But Roman private law proceeded on the assumption that, unless specified otherwise – and it usually was not – a sui iuris women was not legally different from a sui iuris man; and recall most of the law here is private. Consequently, Roman women could hold property, execute contracts, do business, make wills, bring suit against people, and be sued themselves. That is a lot more legal latitude than women had in basically any other ancient society I know of and that’s well worth comment. However, women who were sui iuris were required to have a legal guardian, a tutor, however the tutores of adult women had a lot less power, being only able to veto her decisions and only under certain circumstances. Moreover, an adult woman was typically able to choose her own guardian and this was a continuing right; she could replace a guardian too. Interestingly, her sine manu husband had no say at all in this process – her choice of tutor did not need to be him (though it could be) nor did it need to be acceptable to him. It seems to have been common, at least by the late Republic, for women of means to choose guardians over whom they had significant control, such as their own freedman."
Thanks for this! I was going to post the same thing.
Athens particularly seems to be the worst possible example of women's rights in antiquity (and Rome close to the best perhaps). Greeks seem to have been more chauvinist than the Romans in general (although of course neither society measures up even remotely to modern standards). Also, real Scandinavia very likely was not exactly like modern depictions in (mostly fantasy) stories like The Vikings where more or less modern sensibilities are applied to women (with some outright fantasy like the ubiquitous "shield maidens"). Though this was probably just a minor remark by Scott and nothing related to the book itself.
Bits like this actually make me doubt many of the other historical statistics from the book as well. The fact that the author is not a professional historian seems to show. I don't think he made up any of his examples but is not aware of a wider context and might have a tendency for overt generalisation from 1 or 2 unusual examples.
I would say that the last point is actually genuinely the best one. Christians offered a god who actually loves everyone and an outlook of a great afterlife unavailable to most Greeks or Romans. It was also an actively proselytizing religion and one which did so by providing and caring about others. It could have probably still lost to say Mithraism or the cult of Sol Invictus but with Constantine and later emperors backing it, it had an upper hand. But traditional Roman religion simply was a less appealing idea. Later, Christianity simply had the power behind it and could spread all over Europe through the elites just like Roman culture spread in the Roman world before. The elites wanted to emulate the more powerful elites who already were Christian/Roman. The rest of the population followed, slowly.
Almost all traditional religions gave way to either abrahamic faiths or buddhism. The only examples which avoided this are the Hindus and Shinto. And in case of shinto this was due to very significant state effort, a systematic repression of Christianity ... and 300 years of complete isolation of Japan. I am actually not sure how Hinduism managed to survive against both Buddhism and especially Islam.
You also have syncretic african diaspora religions like Santería or Vodú in the Caribbean which keep traditional elements and probably some other examples I don't know about but these are all fairly small. Also, I think that minor religions are simply more likely to survive now due to modern technology (and also the lower religious pressure in the society in general).
> I am actually not sure how Hinduism managed to survive against both Buddhism and especially Islam.
Might a highly evolved literary tradition have something to do with this? Hinduism has a rich scriptural backbone.
Hmm, it is true that a significant problem of most traditional religions is that they have basically no scripture and even little in terms of a unified theology. Shinto has a sort of a unified scripture and Hinduism has the vedas.
Also, Greek and Roman religions are not the same (even if they are similar) and Egyptian religions was different still as were the religions in Gaul, Iberia etc. And that's still underestimating the fragmentation - even in Greece, there was not a single "Greek religion". So Christianity and other more unified religions were not fighting against a monolithic pagan religion but just a series of local traditions ... just as they were later in the Americas, Africa, everywhere. And I am pretty sure the same goes for questions like "why did mongols/turks abandon tengriism the moment they encountered islam or buddhism?". Tengriism is not a unified religion either.
What also helped is that Christianity incorporated features from most of the local traditions anyway, just as it did later in the Americas (Santa Muerte and the like). A lot of saints are derived from previous gods or demigods.
Actually, one point Daniel Dennet makes in his book "Breaking the Spell" on this topic, is that *not* having written, documented scripture may be a greater mimetic benefit because it allows for more mutations, meaning adaption and change can occur easier, spreading memetic innovation. A story or ritual performance might deviate by chance from the original intent, but in doing so, become much more impressive.
That wouldn't do much to explain how Greco-Roman paganism got displaced.
Sure it would. There wasn't much theology associated with those traditions. They're fairy-tales, essentially.
How do you think they differ from the Hindu traditions?
The Vedas are fairly prescriptive. Lots of talk about honor, duty, etc. The Greek myths are mostly just stories about Zeus raping chicks.
The Greek equivalent to the Vedas would be the Homeric epics. They are not short on discussions of honor and duty.
I don't think anyone used Homer as a guide to life.
Then you're uninformed. The most prominent example of someone explicitly telling us that's what he's doing is Alexander the Great, but the phenomenon is deeply embedded in the culture.
For one thing Islam only had strong control of the north of India. The south was largely under Hindu rule.
"Later, Christianity simply had the power behind it and could spread all over Europe through the elites just like Roman culture spread in the Roman world before. The elites wanted to emulate the more powerful elites who already were Christian/Roman. The rest of the population followed, slowly."
Sure, it turned into a good old hierarchical diffusion process. From high status & urban to lower states & rural.
Many TV series for US audiences in historical settings are just 21st century Americans in fancy dress. I watched maybe two episodes of Vikings, and had to stop.
I understand that the show-writers are holding a mirror to whatever domestic crises are going on at the time, but the audience is left with the impression that all people at all times held the same cultural norms, and the differences are reduced to a mild accent and saying 'By Loki' a lot. It depresses me that people aren't curious about how thoughts and attitudes differed in the past.
More generally, I'd say we're guilty of. viewing the past in an overly homogenised way. There were individuals and a variety of opinions back then, like now...
> I understand that the show-writers are holding a mirror to whatever domestic crises are going on at the time, but the audience is left with the impression that all people at all times held the same cultural norms
To be completely fair to the show, that's what the audience starts out believing.
May I recommend "The Last Kingdom" for your 9th-century Vikings-and-Christians fix, with a broad range of beliefs and cultures that mostly aren't 21st century moderns in period dress?
I mean the clothes they wear still seem to be kind of funky. Biker leather gear :D
But perhaps the story is better than that of the Vikings (I haven't watched it, just some screenshots now). It seems to be UK production so I do expect it to have fewer cliché Hollywood tropes than US shows though :-)
Story is much better; it's based on a series of novels by Bernard Cornwell. Among other things, while it's mostly written from the POV of a pagan Dane, the Christians keep *winning* because they are constant in their faith and purpose while the Danes are strong but fickle. Uhtred quickly decides he wants to be on the winning team, which makes for an interesting fish-out-of-water view of the creation of England.
That sounds interesting, I might give it a go. Thanks! :)
I remember watching The Borgias ... or Borgia. I mean, there are these two shows, one is from a US directory but European production and another one is from a European directory but US production. And they are called almost the same.
Anyway ... the European production one has a lower budget but they are going for historical accuracy. So there's a guy there and his wife cheats on him with someone else, he catches them in the act. He takes a fire poker and ... kills her. This is actually shocking to see. But sadly also probably quite realistic. He is quite high ranking in society, she is not and this is the 15th/16th century. He never gets punished for this in any way, it is treated as legitimate. Of course the scene is horrible but it brings the time forward a lot more effectively than the US production where cardinals find it scandalous that the pope Alexander has sex with concubines ... where in reality all of them would, this is the 15th/16th century Church. There are many other details in which these shows differ and yeah, the US production show seems to be mostly "21st century Americans in fancy dress" , whereas the European show seems to be closer to history. Not entirely, because some things were just too strange and would distract people from the story. But you get a clear sense that this is a genuinely different time and a different society from our own modern one. You absolutely don't get that from the Vikings (except in ways where characters are simply acting stupid because the plot needs that).
The Vikings is a particularly bad show ... even the clothes are not even remotely historical, all of it is just fantasy with rather tired tropes of "corrupt and backwards Christians" and "noble savages who by coincidence have pretty much the same values as modern western liberal audiences except being more cool and badass". I never get the appeal of vikings in general, I mean most of them were just raiders who use hit and run tactics to burn down your village, pillage, rape, enslave and get out before a significant military force can arrive to stop them. The more accomplished ones scaled this up to "proper" military invasions. We don't view the Barbary corsairs or Somalian pirates the same way but they are basically the same.
Interesting! If Roman society was more feminist than is presently thought, perhaps this contributed to Roman MGTOW (MGTOVV?) and the women became Christian in reaction.
When you consider guys like Ross Douthat who claims woke is a Christian heresy without Jesus in many ways, perhaps it's a matter of what's new being older than we think? After all, nuns are technically 4Bs.
All I'm going to say is: be very prudent with backprojecting modern sensibilities into the far past.
It's not exactly the same thing, of course, but you do wonder if there's a similar situation where the interests of the genders now point in opposite directions somehow.
I think most of what Devereaux was writing there only really applies to unmarried adult women, to the extent that they existed in Roman society. Scott's point is that most non-Christian women will be pretty much always under the supervision of a father or husband, who would have the de facto and probably de jure power to forbid her from going Christian. I don't *think* Devereaux contradicts this, though I don't have time to reread right now.
But the one glaring loophole there is the widows. Presumably about half of Roman women would have outlived their (first) husband. At which point they are widows, possibly with significant property, definitely with the sort of autonomy that Devereaux writes about. If Roman society is pressuring them to give all that up and go back to living under some man's rule, and the Christians are offering to take her as is...
We only need to explain a ~4% annual growth rate; that doesn't require every woman being able to freely chose her faith all the time. Half of women being free to choose their faith at the one moment it really matters, would go a long way here.
And sure, some of those women will take full advantage of Christianity's "you don't *have* to remarry" policy, but some of them will remarry anyway by choice. And some of them will bring young children from their original marriage into the Christian community. Throw in some lonely Roman men who noticed where all the Hot Widows(tm) are hanging out, and we could be explaining a significant part of that growth rate.
https://www.lsd.law/define/sui-juris
"In ancient Rome, a person who was not under the control of another, such as a child or a slave, was considered sui juris and had the right to own property and make legal decisions."
This tracks with the quote from ACOUP above:
"Interestingly, her sine manu husband had no say at all in this process – her choice of tutor did not need to be him (though it could be) nor did it need to be acceptable to him."
What "sine manu" means is explained here, also part V of the roman republic series:
"Roman marriages came in two legal types, cum manu and sine manu, “with” and “without” ‘the hand.’ Manus, ‘the hand’ here is another word for potestas, so really what this means is, “with the transfer of legal power” (cum manu) and “without the transfer of legal power” (sine manu). "
"That in turn matters because sine manu marriages are clearly the most common sort by the Late Republic and probably even by the Middle Republic;"
So the default was that even married citizen women were mostly sui uiris and thus "legally independent" except for the tutor fig leaf.
The great historian Paul Veyne has written an outstanding book on the same subject. He places great emphasis on the contingent nature of the triumph of Christianity: according to him, everything came to a head in 363, after the death of Emperor Julian.
“And indeed, in that fateful year 363, the year of a change of dynasty, nothing had yet been achieved ; only a retrospective illusion leads us to believe that all Christianity had to do to win the day was to appear on the stage of history. In 361, Julian the Apostate wrested power from his pious sovereign Constantius II and tried to restore to paganism, reformed by him, superiority over Christianity. Julian was no pipe dream: Christianity could still be no more than a historical parenthesis which, opened by Constantine in 312, was to close forever. It didn't close again, however, because after Julian's death in 363, the clans we've been talking about, which had control over the choice of emperors , finally elected Christians rather than pagans as emperor, first Jovian, who soon died, and then Valentinian. It was a close call, like the length of Cleopatra's nose: the clans had first agreed on the pagan Sallustius, Julian's eminent collaborator, who refused the throne.”
I'm not sure I agree; although of course Julian could have survived and gotten pagan successors who persecuted Christianity, I don't see why those persecutions would have ended any differently from those of Nero, Domitian, etc. If Christianity was actually growing at 40%/decade for the sorts of reasons discussed here, that seems like a hard tide to resist, especially given the moribundity of pagan religious practice.
I do think an interesting historical what-if would be "what should Julian have done to maximize paganism's chances?"
If you're interested, here’s what Paul Veyne suggests would probably have happened if a pagan emperor had been elected after the death of Emperor Julian.
"Moreover, a pagan emperor would not have thrown Christians to the lions (that fashion had passed). The masses being either pagan or indifferent, and Christianity not yet the customary religion of the Empire, this emperor would not have had to imitate the excessive zeal of a Julian: he would have simply needed to refrain, stop forbidding sacrifices, and cease financially supporting the Church, while the ambitious would have stopped converting. Then, Christianity would have fallen back to the level of a non-illegal sect. Such a disappearance would be unthinkable? Such a vast ark would be unsinkable? Yet, in three or four centuries, the provinces of Asia and Africa, the oldest and most extensively Christianized parts of the Empire, will be submerged under another religion, Islam."
Huh, so his argument is actually that paganism was doomed anyway, but that Islam is even more virulent than Christianity? Seems plausible.
This assumes that Islam rises in the counterfactual world in the same form it wound up taking in our history, but *without* Christianity (and therefore by extension Judaism) becoming as widespread, and influential, as in actual history? Seems like a pretty big assumption given how influenced by Judaism and Christianity that Islam is.
I think the countefactual to "Christianity wins" isn't necessarily "Paganism endures"; the Empire might have been due for mass conversion to *something* without it being preordained that it would be Christianity. Consider [the cult of Sol Invictus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus): in 274 AD, this Akhenaten-like sect loosely appropriated from Syrian practices got about as far as Christianity had with Constantine, i.e. an Emperor who converted to it over classical paganism. Perhaps circa 300 it's obvious that Paganism is on the way out, but there are lots of cults vying to replace it, and we just know a lot more about Christianity than its rivals because it happened to win.
When you're a minority it is easier to find converts. I suspect that elite promotion is needed to really get Christianity "over the hump". Nevertheless, I think another Constantine would have emerged eventually even if Julian's dynasty had lasted longer.
The part about Christianity spreading due to niceness and relaxed and nice interaction with non-Christians leaves me a bit confused. If that is the driver of Christianity's growth, then that must have changed at some point when Christianity became a dominant religion (locally or in the empire)? Part of the later spread of Christianity happened by state conquest, there was little tolerance against pagans, and as far as I know that was different in the Roman Empire, were basically everybody could have their own religion as long as they obeyed the Empire's/Emperor's authority. Between Christian denominations, there was also little tolerance, but maybe that is part of the typical Ingroup/Outgroup dynamic.
Christianity a mere 2 decades ago apparent wanted to ban dungeons and dragons and now believing god choose a rude angry newyorker who is known to have sex with a porn sex to rebirth his promised nation.
Yes I would imagine the Christianity of rome to have shifted.
No, Christianity did not choose Trump. His success especially over Pence in the primaries shows how little influence Christianity has now in the US. He still gets their votes, though, because Harris is even farther from their views.
my mistake; GOD choose trump, that pope is just a worthless sinner
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/witches-are-trying-to-cast-spells-on-trump-but-cant-reddit-thread-viral/articleshow/114555492.cms
oh my god I remember this article as something from the babylon bee
Is there any way to check this assessment? (Without any "True Scotsman" statements) My impression is that there is a mutually supportive relationship between Trump and politically influential/active churches. In The Economist, there are for example the following articles about evangelicals Christians and Trump:
"Why evangelicals love Donald Trump" (2017) https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/05/18/why-evangelicals-love-donald-trump "Some political scientists sound more like anthropologists than theologians when they dissect Mr Trump’s success with whites who call themselves evangelical Protestants and attend church regularly—fully 80% of whom told a recent survey by the Pew Research Centre that they approve of his job performance. "
"The Americans who think Trump is anointed by God" (Oct 22, 2024) https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/10/22/the-americans-who-think-trump-is-anointed-by-god "Mr Trump’s capture of white evangelical protestants (who comprise a quarter of voters) was one of the most striking features of his political ascendancy. Less appreciated is how Mr Trump has transformed evangelicalism, elevating beliefs and figures once considered marginal or nutty. This goes both ways. MAGA world is now chock-full of the language and imagery of charismatic Christianity."
In the 2016 Republican primaries, Trump's supporters were less religious than the Republican party as a whole. By the time of the 2016 general election however, most conservative Christians had come to accept, and then embrace Trump.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/07/18/for-gop-voters-a-winding-path-to-a-trump-nomination/
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/07/21/churchgoing-republicans-once-skeptical-of-trump-now-support-him/
Interestingly enough, the conservative Christian sect with perhaps the least approval for Trump is Mormonism. In fact, Trump failed to reach 50% of the vote in 2016, when Evan McMullin ran a parochial anti-Trump center-right protest campaign against him largely centered around LDS voters.
Mormons don't like mean people. They're also pretty highly educated. In my ward it's almost like the religion is a smart people meeting for town filled with teachers, doctors, dentists, lawyers etc. I read that in Utah, where Mormonism is almost an ethnicity, the support for trump was closeish to evangelicals.
You’re conflating “born-again evangelicals” with “Christianity.” “Born again evangelicals” were the *only* Christian sub-group that decisively broke for Trump. Catholics were 50/50 mainline protestants tilted Harris. (Born-again evangelicals were also the anti-D&D people.)
https://open.substack.com/pub/ryanburge/p/how-will-the-faithful-vote-in-2024?r=15flm&utm_medium=ios
> *only*
? I can think of several people who are very very right wing and very very religious who are very incoherent and consistently fighting over angels on heads of pins who are radically for trump.
Ignore whatever data that doesnt make you experience what youd call "qanon memes" as some sort of red-wing epistemic revolt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaHLn7NRuHs
I meant as a sub-group. Like saying “independent voters broke for Trump, but white college-educated women went for Harris.” Plenty of independents voted Harris and plenty of white college-educated women voted Trump but that’s the way the groups went.
I dont view most people as actually religious even if they claim to be; we are all bathed in a secular, materialist reductionist culture and few fish are aware of the water. The exceptions seem schizo to others.
>95% of people (try) make arguments from data and statistics of science, I could probably find 100s of preachers who say "people should get marrired because heres the tax breaks and life expectatcy data" and not some poetic meta-physical love.
You can find those who feel trump turned is head at just the right second was metaphysical evidence, they should probably be mostly for trump and actually religious.
I feel most comfortable with the mystical arguments you wouldn't take seriously, which is why I don't discuss my religious beliefs here.
You only hear the people trying to speak in data, either because you speak in data or inhabit spaces that live and die by data.
Also coming back because I didn’t want to throw my coreligionists under the bus either —
— I don’t think breaking for Trump proves that born-again evangelicals are especially hateful or anti-love, either. I think they’re mostly working class and socially conservative people who see Trump as the lesser of two evils.
> who see Trump as the lesser of two evils
...That's not exactly helping their case.
You know, I wrote in for president this election after voting Democrat in every election since I was old enough to vote (2004 onwards).
The *number one* reason that I could not bring myself to vote D this election cycle was the *unremitting sneering contempt* I keep hearing for working class people who feel like the Dems have abandoned them and are flipping to Trump.
When I joined the Dems it was because we were the party of the little guy, who listened to the problems of the nurses’ aide and the hairdresser and the firefighter and the plumber. These are the people I grew up with, who I work with (I’m a nurse) and go to church with and who make up maybe half of my social circle. They’re good people who don’t usually talk the “right” way (as decided by people with advanced degrees) but fill out the ranks of every volunteer ambulance crew, soup pantry, and food kitchen I have ever volunteered at.
I, personally, did not and would not vote for Trump’s GOP for a variety of reasons including the way he talks about women and minorities. I don’t feel comfortable formally affiliating with any group that normalizes speaking that way about other human beings.
But lots of good and reasonable people see it differently, in no small part because the mores about how it’s ok to talk are very different between the bachelor’s or more social class (me, I admit it; I can be prissy like that too) and the associate’s or less social class.
And what I hear from my former party is not any effort to listen to their concerns but instead an endless, endless doubling down on how they’re unredeemable bigoted hateful trash.
I just can’t. I can’t.
If it is any consolation, some of the Democratic Party House members who got re-elected this past election are more respectful towards their constituents. The New York Times put it:
>Marie Gluesenkamp Perez of Washington State was re-elected in a House district where Trump thumped Kamala Harris.
...
>How? These Democrats ran on strikingly similar themes — part progressive, part moderate, part conservative. Above all, they avoided talking down to voters and telling them they were wrong to be frustrated about the economy, immigration and post-pandemic disorder. “The fundamental mistake people make is condescension,” Gluesenkamp Perez told my colleague Annie Karni after the election.
( As it happens, I gritted my teeth and voted against Harris, primarily because of her proposals to "regulate" [censor] online speech. Though Trump is horrible. )
I mean, obviously Harris hasn't been POTUS (and likely won't be, assuming Biden doesn't die or resign before his term's up), so it's hard to get a complete handle on her, but the impression I got is that she's less moderate than Biden. And, well, Biden appears to have called "Fair Game" on Elon Musk for running a major social media site without SJ censorship (not all of them, just one refusing to toe the line), which strikes directly at rule of law and freedom of the press and is one of the major elements usually seen in democratic backsliding and the establishment of a de-facto one-party state (see e.g. the Dictator Book Club posts about Erdogan and Orban; Putin and Hitler also used this to some extent).
Might Trump do something worse? Maybe! But it's not certain; that action set the bar for "lesser evil" very low indeed.
>Part of the later spread of Christianity happened by state conquest, there was little tolerance against pagans, and as far as I know that was different in the Roman Empire, were basically everybody could have their own religion as long as they obeyed the Empire's/Emperor's authority.
I don't believe that is very accurate. Though there are some cases of conversion by conquest in history, the vast majority of Christian conversion happens peacefully through history. The exceptions stand out because of how unusual they were: Charlamagne's "Bloody Verdict at Verdun" where he tried to convert by the sword was considered shocking even at the time, and condemned by many contemporary Christian figures. Even the Conquistadors did not do much conversion at the point of a sword: in fact, after the initial conquests most of them were pretty angry at priests coming to convert the natives, because there were already laws on the books giving Christians a right to trial and forbidding slavery for Christians. You had figures like the priest Bartolomé de las Casas who came to the New World as a colonist but then abandoned his land and slaves and devoted the rest of his life to advocating for native rights and for the abolition of slavery. Why would he do that, except out of love? His story is not unique.
Thanks for this reflective review. There were some wispy disconnects that puzzled me - a bit like reading a review of a cricket match as though the reporter thought they had been watching a game of rounders. For instance, my understanding is that the Jewish diaspora was well organised and networked. The picture in Acts is that the first Christians used these networks to get to first base and used their structural models of worship when thy broke away.
Overall, I like the candour, and the attempts to use these hypotheses and discoveries to hold a mirror to our own society.
I found Glen Scrivener's
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Air-We-Breathe-Kindness-Progress-ebook/dp/B09S6N1QHZ
An easy-ready approach to some of the later history.
Thank you!
In the Netherlands, we've seen a stark decline in (practicing) Christians. But I'd like to address your point about 'how virtuous' and loving early Christians were. One of most active Christian groups that are left here are Evangelicals. They're by and large represented by a party called Christian Union which has about 6 seats out of 150 in parliament, to give you an idea of the demographics.
Over the past 20 years, they've evolved from pretty traditional orthodox Christians to pro lgbti, pro environmentalist. They combine this with a traditional stressing of their denominations of love for Jesus and your fellow man. Generally they seem to be much more likely to do things like take in refugees, foster children etc.
I was neither raised nor attracted in particular by this kind of Christianity (I was raised the general Dutch Reformed Church (think Presbyternianism), which when I was young (born 1988) was already transforming into a very permissive kind of Christianity, with some sterner elements among the elderly and the stupid). But I can see how in a harsher, more dog-eat-dog world, these people would've seen like absolute saints.
The kind of altruism exhibited by early Christians is *extra* effective when you live in something closely resembling hell. Christianity is dying off rapidly in especially northern Europe largely because there's no need to give yourself over to the Lord when you have to try pretty hard to become truly destitute in a modern (northern) European welfare state. Compare this to how important Christianity is in the poorer parts of the US, where you're one at-will firing away from living on the streets.
I think it's the combination of societal destitution and Christian kindness that made it so effective. Since in modern Europe or even the US that level of destitution is absent or not the norm, it's super *nice* that people are so kind, but it won't turn you into one of them.
The Evangelical Calvinist vote in the Netherlands is more accurately split into the Christian Union and the conservative, theocratic SGP. The split is now 50-50, while it used to be 75-25 in favour of CU. I personally like CU but I don't think they've been electorally successful after moving left. They are more like the modernised Jews that Scott mentioned
Evangelical Christians have very little to do with the Orthodox Reformed denominations. The latter are more comparable to Southern Baptists in their outlook, the former only have anti-abortionism as a conservative talking point.
Almost all major protestant denominations are descendant from Calvinism in some way, but have diversified, often based on minute differences, over centuries. There's a bible belt running northeast to southwest which contains the majority of Orthodox Reformed people. Evangelicals are much more widespread throughout traditional protestante areas.
Are you a researcher of Dutch politics? Because I'm curious where you got these statistics.
I have a Dutch passport and I simply follow the politics :) I was fascinated by the leftwing Evangelical Calvinists, how some of them joined the Communist party to form the Green Left party in the '80s. And my understanding is that both CU and SGP are especially strong in the Bible Belt you mention. I'm somehow saddened that SGP overtook CU in the 2023 elections, that's essentially the statistics I made use of. My understanding is that the move leftwards of the party did not match well with their traditional base, however appreciated it can be among secular members of the public or Trouw readers
Ah, interesting. I wouldn't say they were overtaken, as 2,08% for the SGP versus 2,04% for ChristenUnie is pretty much negligible. On top of that, CU was second behind SGP only in voter retention, 70& vs 85% respectively. Some of those 30% may have gone to SGP, but apparently not enough to gain SGP a 4th seat, which they never have had and probably never will. At any rate, not a significant swing in my opinion, nor a strong indication that CU's more progressive leanings have been punished.
Moreover, the cultural progressivism on especially LGBTI-rights has been going on much longer. At least since 2010, CU has reflected the change in especially its younger constituents who really can't bring themselves to dislike gay people in a country like the Netherlands anymore. There certainly hasn't been any punishment for it, with 5 seats for five or six elections in a row.
I'd say their current predicament is simply because they were part of a very, very unpopular government coalition which nobody really wanted, but for which there were few or no workable alternatives. Even buzzards gag, and the famously docile CU constituency looked elsewhere.
Anyway, I respectfully disagree with your analysis so far, but I'm always interested in hearing more :)
"Evangelical Christians have very little to do with the Orthodox Reformed denominations. The latter are more comparable to Southern Baptists in their outlook, the former only have anti-abortionism as a conservative talking point."
I appreciate this clarification, because I misunderstood your earlier post. I had assumed "evangelical" was being used in its usual anglophone sense, of which the Southern Baptists would be a central example. I know that in Germany the word is used to mean Protestant but also to refer specifically to the churches formed by the forcible state merger of the Lutheran and Calvinist churches.
How do the Dutch use it?
RIght, I was triggered mostly by 'Evangelical Calvinists' because that's just not a category anyone uses in the Netherlands. It'd be like calling all protestants in the US 'American Calvinists' or something, including Methodists, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists and what have you. I don't think Alfonso meant it that way, but still.
So, in my original comment I considered including this but thought it was overly digressive. Basically, within Dutch Protestantism, there are two main terms which are pretty much untranslatable because they are two conjugations, of the same verb, which don't exist in English. The terms are 'Hervormd' and 'Gereformeerd'. These both translate as Reformed in English. You could say Hervormd is Reformed, and Gerformeerd is Formed Again. Technically Gereformeerd is the past perfect of reformeren, whereas Hervormd is the past tense of hervormen, the latter of which has broader connotations beyond Christianity, for instance financial reform or social reform. The former never does.
Anyway the history of these two terms is absurdly complicated. Basically in the late 16th century, protestantism in the Netherlands started off with the Gerformeerde Nederduitse Kerk (Reformed Lower German Church). This became the general protestant church in the Republic of the Seven United Provinces after they rebelled against the Spanish Empire. In the Spanish-held provinces you got the Waalse Kerken, Wallonian Churches, which were protestant churches with French as their language of service.
In the early 17th century the first schism happened, when the Remonstrants split off from the the main Gereformeerde Nederduitse Kerk after two hundred reverends got kicked out of the Synode of Dordrecht for being too chill and liberal, more or less. They still exist.
Then there were probably a whole bunch of minor split-offs and arguments and what have you, but the big thing is that in the early 19th century the Waalse kerken and the GNK mentioned above, merged into... the Nederlands Hervormde Kerk. Yes, the Gereformeerden became the Hervormden, so the Reformed... became the Reformed. This is the church which the Royal House of Orange-Nassau belongs to, and though there is no state religion in the Netherlands this is the closest you could get (which sets us apart from the Scandinavian and English monarchies).
Anyway, some of the more conservative elements didn't like this and split off again in 1886, forming... the Gerformeerde Kerken in Nederland. These then become the default conservative protestants, whereas the Hervormden are your mainstream Protestants, though not especially progressive either.
For almost a century all is well and peaceful in Dutch protestantism, until the 40s when conservative Gereformeerden split off to become the Gereformeerde Kerken Vrijgemaakt, which means Reformed Churches Liberated. These then become the 'black socks and ankle-length skirts' conservative Christians which are represented by the SGP party, and also in part by the predecessors of the Christian Union, GPV and RPF.
The regular Geformeerden go on in the 60s and 70s to become much more progressive, setting the stage for the acceptance of abortion in the 70s/80s, and euthanasia and gay marriage in the 90s/2000s.
In 2004 it all comes full circle, when the Nederlands Hervormde Kerk and Gerformeerde Kerken Nederland merge into the Protestantse Kerk Nederland. This is largely a response to declining membership and ever vaguer ideological differences, as both have members which find themselves very comfortable with Dutch mainstream politics, accepting euthanasia, gay marriage, abortion, and generally supporting the generous welfare state and high taxation because that's actually what Jesus preached.
Anyway, I hope you liked this overview of just a few of the most important denominations. There are several hundred denominations in the Netherlands because this is the OG religious freedom country.
The evangelicals are bit of a catch-all term for people who like to smile a lot, talk about Jesus' love and infuse their services with crappy band music. They throw a big festival once a year, courtesy of the Evangelical Broadcast organization (part of Dutch Public Broadcasting).
One final note: all Dutch Protestantism is ultimately derived from Calvinism. Lutheranism has been a niche affair in this country since forever, and half the country is historically Catholic thanks to the Spanish Empire's successful counter-Reformation in the south. And now it's time for bed.
Thanks for the summary. I'm curious to read up on this history some time, particularly the original Arminians.
It's interesting to me that evangelical is a fuzzy term in Dutch as well, even though its meaning is different. In America it's being further stretched by reporters, for whom politics is "real news" and religion is not, so they report on evangelicalism as if it were simply a voting bloc and not a religious movement.
> even though in theory their religion is no more based on love than traditional Christianity
I think this is literally true, but it's very easy to read it as saying "neither mormonism nor traditional Christianity are at all based on love", which isn't true (and I don't think is what you intended, either).
There's yet another aspect, which the reviewer, and thus presumably the book, doesn't mention: St Paul and the early gospel writers clearly wanted to make Christianity congenial to Romans from the outset. (Remember, St Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, inherited Roman citizenship from his father.)
Bearing in mind how hostile most Jews living in Israel were to Rome, Jesus himself in his several recorded interactions is portrayed as unusually ambivalent in his attitude to them. Conversely, Romans such as the centurian whose servant Jesus healed, and Pontius Pilate and his wife, were depicted as sympathetic towards him and his teachings.
Some of Jesus's sayings would also have resonated with Romans because they were almost identical to sayings of well-known Romans. To take one example, a speech by the 2nd century BC land reformer Sempronius Gracchus included the line "The fox has his den, the bird has its nest, but the soldiers (retired legionaries) of Rome have nowhere to lay their heads". Now compare that with a quote by Jesus (Matthew ch 8 v 20) "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."
This example and many others led a researcher called Francesco Carotta to theorise that gospel writers modelled, as best they could, accounts of the life of Jesus on that of Julius Caesar. I haven't read his book "Jesus was Caesar". It would be ludicrous to suggest they were one and the same person, and I don't think he does. But he points out several uncanny similarities of episodes and themes in their lives, and let's not forget Caesar was deified after his death. He was also popular with the Jewish community in Rome, so much so that after his assassination a large group of Jewish people wailed for a whole day round his funeral pyre :
https://www.carotta.de/eindex.html
"Indeed, in spite of the Mormons’ celebrated door-knocking campaign, their internal data shows that only one in a thousand door-knocks results in a conversion, ” is interesting to me because I associate door knockers with Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Scientists, not Mormons. Mormons I associate with randomly stopping you in public everywhere but your home or work.
But what I'm really curious about is that 1/1K number, genuinely curious how that compares to the other two aforementioned group rates for the same activity; if anyone knows I'd love to hear it. At least anecdotally in my universe, JWs are the only ones I've known to have any successful converts from door knocking whereas of the three in that same universe, Mormons are generally the more loathed. I've never actually met a Mormon covert ever TBH.
Why most loathed? In general people in my experience don’t like being converted but the Mormons are seen as more normal and social than Jehovah’s Witnesses. Christian Scientists I have never come across, my impression was that the group was nearly defunct.
I also associate Mormons with approaching people in public, JWs more with standing around in public and handing out brochures.
A lot of it is socioeconomic circles people run in. In my world JWs and CSs are generally misunderstood to be Christians hence are generally tolerated as an estranged Protestant denomination, "wrong but not condemned, more just pitied like you would a Methodist". Whereas it's well understand Mormons aren't Christian and on par with Atheists, defiant insidious pagans (like Buddhists), and Satanists hence to be condemned and loathed. Nobody likes "the enemy" trying to beguile them nor their children especially while appropriating their own symbols, that whole wolf in sheeps clothing thing.
I don't think Mormons are especially loathed by the American public. They were, but roughly 20 years ago, we crossed some kind of threshold and now they are fairly normalized. As evidenced by mitt Romney securing the nomination of the Republican party in 2012..
Like I said, depends your circles. There is a reason Romney wasn't elected and being a avowed pagan was a part of it. Vance is a cryptohindi but it didn't stop him from becoming VP, will stop him from becoming president though hence I see his wife apostatizing at some point.
Even just becoming the nominee of the Republican Party is a very significant sign of acceptance and normalization. Elected or not.
Not really, or more accurately it just shows a changing demographic, i.e more non-Christians. As an aside, the GOP has nothing to do with it either, it can't be discussed in polite circles but the DNC is nearly as Christian as the GOP.
Mormons have a slick marketing campaign but it only really appeals to agnostics and non-Christians IMHO which is a recipe for success giving demographic changes but that's not acceptance, that's just an increased percentage of the electorate numbers game.
Mormonism’s many converts have come almost entirely from other Christian sects. Not from agnostics. I have no reason to think that this dynamic was any less true when it came to Romney’s nomination. I don't have that much skin in the game, since I'm a deist. I suspect that you may respond with a tautology wherein “if they converted to Mormonism they were never Christians, just pagans with the outward appearance of Christianity.” I'm going to preemptively say I don't agree with that tautology. Nor do I have time to argue with you about whether Mormonism is Christianity or not. I feel from your choice of words that it would be irrational to try to argue that with you.
I can live with that, it's not an argument anyway but a conversation.
I'd agree though I would generalize Christian apostates as usually just cultural Christians but people do occasionally lose their faith.
Mormons aren't Christians, not even a Christian heresy. Satanists and Muslims have more a claim to being a legitimate Christian heresy than Mormons. That's not really an argument but just fact. Definitions matter, religion isn't wokism, you can't be a Christian without accepting homoousion though the Mormons are doing their damnedest to redefine that. That belief is the core requirement to be a Christian. Mormons are polytheists, hard stop.
Well, as someone with Little skin in The game come as I said before, polytheism makes enormously more sense than monotheism in my view. The very concept of an uncreated being is ludicrous and illogical to me. So I don't think this is the gotcha you think it is.
Your mention of satanism doesn't inspire much faith in your religious analysis. Because based on the context with which you are using the word, it doesn't seem like you are aware that the vast majority of self-described satanists are humanistic atheists.
I'm having deja vu. I'm remembering that we had this exact same discussion before. "Definitions matter, religion isn't wokeism..." These non sequiturs ring a bell. As I recall, you are some kind of militant right-wing Christian fundamentalist, are you not? If you're the person I am thinking of, you are so persistent and adamant that this has the potential to go on and on forever.
Oh I'm aware of edge lords, I discount their "satanism" and mean genuine ones. The logic or illogic of religion is irrelevant, it's not a humanist idea. Either a specific religion is real or it's not, you (or I) are free to be right (or wrong) in that belief and deal with the consequences after we shuffle the mortal coil. I'm indifferent the logical case for polytheism as it doesn't matter. Even objectively your deities exist or mine do or neither do, we will all find out later. I'm indifferent on interfaith proselytizing, it made sense back in the day when it was unknown but we are long past that in the realm of "those with ears will hear".
It’s fascinating to see someone in real life who holds these opinions. I mean this genuinely – I am a Mormon and I have grown up hearing from members that one reason Romney failed to win the presidency was because he was forsaken by evangelical voters who regarded Mormons with outright suspicion and hostility, often not even seeing Mormons as Christian. You’re the first person I’ve interacted with who has met that description.
I'm not an evangelical nor am I aware of a single branch of Christianity, nor mainline domination or sect of, that doctrinal considers Mormon's Christians. Nor does Islam consider them a people of the book; I can't speak to Judism, I have no idea what Jews consider Mormons, everyone is a gentile to them so it's probably a meaningless distinction.
That isn't to say people aren't polite or ignorant, laity often is in all religions, but once you get into what matters, doctrine, Mormons are just another polytheistic heathen religion which is uniquely (in modern times) insidious given it publicly wraps itself in the trappings of Christian Protestantism. Islam and Judism both believe Jesus was a prophet, that doesn't make them Christian. Likewise Buddhism, Baha'i, Rastafari, etc all believe Jesus was a holy man but likewise not Christians. The best case Mormons can make is they are an Abrahamic heresy and that may be a legitimate claim but once again, not Christian. At least Islam has a strong claim of Abrahamic legitimacy via Hagar, Joseph Smith, not so much.
Not arguing here so sorry if that comes off impolite, just elaborating a little as you seemed interested in the rational so expanding it out just as an information dump. Sorry typing on my phone so not going to edit it to death to say it "nicer" lol. Feel free to believe as you wish though, I'm not the sort to proselytize as I generally find it counterproductive to getting converts in nominally culturally Christian nations.
PS: Don't ascribe any of that to hostility nor suspicion as you stated your peers do, that is reserved for heretics or other branches of Christianity. Nobody hates Mormons anymore than they hate Shintos, they are just pitied and prayed for. But likewise not going to vote for one either as generally one has a duty to support ones fellow Christian, especially over a heathen.
If the choice was down to Romney or Mohammed in a presidential vote, sorry but at least Mohammad and us share the same God.
PSS: This is just the perspective from my side of the aisle, I make no claim to universal legitimacy nor that your side believes it to be an accurate portrayal of their beliefs.
"Vance is a cryptohindi"
What? Let me be clear on this: you are saying that since his wife is Hindu, he too is Hindu but is hiding it, and that's why he... converted to Catholicism instead of remaining in whatever denomination he was raised in, or switching to a more liberal mainline Protestant one?
I have to admit, I love these conspiracy theories around religion when it comes to politicians. Unless by "his wife apostasising" you mean that she (pretends to) leave being Hindu in order to make him electable as nobody will vote for someone whose spouse isn't Christian?
Is *that* the real reason why Kamala lost - her husband is Jewish? Let's roll those conspiracies on even more!
possibly the idea is that Catholics, who are polytheistic and make offerings before idols in ornate temples, and who revere holy men and gurus, would fit right in as just another sect within the broad Hindu umbrella. I think a lot of American Evangelicals would find this to be a reasonable description of Catholicism.
Well, arguably Zelensky being Jewish is a big reason he got so much support from the West, though that's about to end. But with Kamala the conspiracy theory would go the other way.
Jehovah Witnesses & Christian Scientists aren't in this survey, but there is evidence that Mormons are widely dislike:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2023/03/15/americans-feel-more-positive-than-negative-about-jews-mainline-protestants-catholics/pf_2023-03-15_religion-favorability_00-08-png/
This description is so different from my experience that I'm wondering if you've got the denominations mixed up. Christian Scientists, for example, hardly even exist anymore. I don't think I've ever heard of them knocking on doors. The most I've seen from them are "reading rooms" set up near college campuses.
They aren't denominations but I digress and no IME. I've only had CS knock once so maybe it was a fluke or just a rare CS evangelist, like you I believe their main proselytization methods are via exposure via their reading rooms or the Christian Science Monitor. Whereas I've had JW knock over a couple dozen times and nairy once a Mormon. All anecdotal of course.
CSs aren't as dead as you think they are either, I still run into one or two a year which is more than I can say of Lutherans or Hindis. I find CSs are like Salvation Army adherents or Baha'i, they seem to have a small practitioner community complete with a building everywhere in America once an area hits a minimum threshold level of let's arbitrarily say a 250,000.
It totally makes sense that you've seen Jehovah's witnesses more. Door knocking is usually reserved for full-time missionaries in the Mormon tradition. And door knockers always travel in pairs, whereas I'm pretty sure I've seen Jehovah's witnesses knocking on doors alone.
I run into tons of Lutherans all the time, and I'm from a partially Hindu family myself (my own religious views are kind of in flux at the moment). I don't think I've ever met a Christian Scientist.
I would never meet them, or more accurately be aware I met one, generally if my kids weren't in public schools. Kids gossip especially around things like "why don't you celebrate Christmas" or "didn't get a COVID vaccine" which then leads to finding out people's religions. Every school my kids have ever attended always ended up with at least one or two CS kids in their grade.
Isn't 1/1000 an amazing (for them) percentage? A door knock takes let's say 10 minutes, 1000 door knocks is a month's worth of work for a door knocker (2 months if they come in pairs), and in return you get someone to join your group for a lifetime.
I have no idea hence my curiosity the comparison rate, maybe it is, maybe it's not, IDK. Also we have no idea (from this post) the commitment of those converts or what metric the use to constitute success. Lot of people commenting but nobody really providing the data.
We have no idea how committed the Christians were in 500 AD (after Christianity had become the dominant religion of the Roman Empire). They were legally compelled to show outward signs of commitment, but who knows how many truly devout believers there were?
I don't disagree but that wasn't the question. The claim is 1/1K is a good success rate and I'm admitting that I have no idea if that is true or not but I'd like to see the metrics both on in comparison to even JWs (i.e. is the JW rate better or worse for door knocking) and constitutes a success as they self define it.
Ten minutes per attempt when it fails in the first few minutes, but I'm pretty sure the overall "sales funnel" of conversion takes much longer - probably somewhere on the order of 50 to 200 contact hours - with non-negligible risks of failure later on in the process.
But probably most, or nearly all, attempts fail in the first few minutes. I'd guess most fail in the first few seconds. If you've gotten as far as 10 minutes of conversation on the subject, your odds have probably gone up from 1/1000 to 1/50 or something.
Failing in the first few seconds of talking doesn't make the walk to the next house any shorter, and "majority of attempts" isn't the same as "majority of time / energy spent."
Suppose you've got twenty immediate door-slam failures, maybe three or four hours total, and then one prospective convert who hit something they weren't willing to live with ten hours into the theology talk. Not only is that more time than all the rest put together, it's likely going to be more emotionally draining for the proselytizer - door slam isn't enough opportunity to get hopes up.
I'm a recent convert and it's been a several months process with at least two meetings with the missionaries a week.
If any of you have seen Darren Aronofsky's "The Whale", one of the plot points involves the question of whether a particular denomination still does door-knocking. My understanding is that the original stage-play from 2012 explicitly involved Mormons (since Samuel Hunter grew up among them in Idaho), while in the film they are replaced with a fictional church. Perhaps that was to avoid offending anyone, but it occurred to me that might be a way to side-step the question of what the actual practices of LDS missionaries in the US are at any point in time.
Will finish reading later as I’m meant to be asleep right now! But wanted to idly suggest in response to your comments about Jewish people and diaspora, it has sometimes seemed to me that diaspora-proneness is kind of a characteristic of Levantine people. Modern Syrians and Lebanese are all over the place too, cities all over Africa and Latin America as well as obviously more developed places, and very often running successful small businesses. Wasnt that kind of the thing with the Sea Peoples too. I wonder if being located at the crossroads of three continents had an effect on root cultural tendencies.
Phoenicians, not Sea Peoples.
Sea Peoples were violent invaders, and mostly hailed from Greece and Turkey I believe.
Thanks for clarifying. I thought that was two names for the same group!
Do Armenians count as Levantine? They also seem diaspora prone.
There are definitely a ton of them in the Levant, but no, it’s about a Texas away from the Levant. But also, I wasn’t really trying to say that all peoples living in diaspora are from the Levant, more just that it’s particularly common among people from there. And even that I’m not guaranteeing to be accurate! More of an idle thought than a thesis lol.
Probably business is a bigger part of the culture, maybe because that part of the world has been civilized for so long. Good to go around and make connections elsewhere your family can trade with.
Come to think of it, there are a lot of overseas Chinese, and they've been around for a while too...
Coincidentally I am currently reading Peter Heather’s Christendom: The Triumph of a Religion. He is skeptical of Stark’s model, and especially of his numbers, for pretty well founded reasons imho. I'll just copy paste his observations:
“About 85–90 per cent of the Empire’s population consisted of remote communities of widely dispersed peasants busy working the land, and it was only in the sixth century that Christian leaders even began to develop mechanisms for spreading their religion systematically into much of the countryside. (…) Equally unconvincing is the idea that 10 per cent of the Empire’s total population was already Christian in 300. By this date, Christianity was – apart from some limited areas of North Africa, Egypt and Asia Minor – fundamentally an urban phenomenon. Given the overwhelming predominance of rural peasants in the Empire, for Christians to have comprised anything approaching 10 per cent of the total imperial population by 300, virtually the entirety of the Empire’s urban population would have had to be Christian. This was manifestly not the case.
The Empire of the early fourth century was divided into 1,800 or so smaller and larger towns and cities (each responsible for administering substantial rural hinterlands). At the same date, the mark of an organized Christian community of any size was that it was run by a bishop. No simple listing of early fourth-century bishoprics has come down to us, but exhaustive historical investigation has concluded that, around AD 300, bishoprics existed in a maximum of about six hundred (or one third) of the towns and cities of the Empire. These identifiable Christian communities clustered especially in the south and east of the Empire and were thinner on the ground towards the west and north, in Spain, Gaul and Britain. This means that two-thirds of the Empire’s cities had no organized Christian community at all; nor did Christians yet constitute a majority of the urban population in any of the other cities that did. Even where a Christian congregation had existed for several centuries (such as in Antioch, where the congregation’s first-century foundation is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles), Christians still formed only a minority among the city’s urban population in the mid-fourth century, a generation or two after Constantine. (…)
Such a conclusion is strongly supported by the limited quantity of more specific information that has come down to us. The only actual pre-Constantinian Christian church known from archaeological excavation is that of Dura-Europos in what is now Syria. Dating to the mid-third century, the church was abandoned, along with the city itself, when captured by the Persians in 256/7. It was an adapted town house, comprising an open, painted meeting hall, and a baptistery off to one side. But the hall could not have accommodated more than seventy people, which implies that Dura’s Christian community was still very small. (The city’s synagogue was much larger.) There were, it’s true, larger Christian congregations elsewhere. Already in the mid-third century, more than 150 clergy were supported by the Christian community of Rome, which also took care of over 1,500 widows and orphans. Clearly, by this date the imperial capital’s Christians comprised several thousand individuals and constituted probably the single largest Christian congregation anywhere in the Empire. But the capital’s population in this era was between 750,000 and 1 million people, so that even a total Roman congregation of 20,000 Christians (which seems unlikely) would still only have represented about 2 per cent of the city’s inhabitants. (…)
A bit of further thought suggests where the problem lies in the sociology behind the more optimistic estimates that 10 per cent or more of the Empire’s population was Christian by this point. The model which suggests that Christianity would have spread with a steady rate of increase of 40 per cent per generation is based on comparative data gathered primarily in the United States on two modern religious movements: the Unification Church (‘Moonies’) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). After 1945, both movements gave up trying to proselytize through public meetings, concentrating instead on exploiting the private social networks of their existing members; the indications are that early Christianity did spread in broadly similar ways. But the expansion rate of 40 per cent per generation is derived from observations made over just two generations, or about fifty years of activity. It’s a huge leap of faith to suppose that these religious movements will carry on expanding at the same rate for another two hundred and fifty years (ten more generations), which is what the model supposes. Do we really think that 50 per cent of America’s population is likely to belong to either of these two churches in another two hundred years’ time? This is what the steady-state expansion rate, played out over the long term, straightforwardly predicts. The answer is, surely not (although it is obviously safe for me to say this since I probably won’t be around to be proved wrong). In reality, conversion rates to any new religious movement are likely to tail off over time, when more likely converts have already been swept up”
[end quote]
Imho plausible synthesis is that mechanisms described in Scott’s article, in conjunction with probable crisis of Roman pagan religion, caused by, you know, the Crisis of the Third Century, which led to general search for alternatives, like the solar cult promoted by an emperor Aurelian, or Mithraism, account for how Christianity spread from few dozen people in the first century to few hundred thousands by the year 300. And then its rapid takeover in the fourth century might be described fairly straightforwardly as conversion being good for career advancement when the emperor was himself Christian.
On Christianity and abortion: maybe I get only unusually nuanced liberal memes, but the liberal meme I got was that:
a) Christianity condemned or looked askance at all abortion as part of its general pro-natalist position,
b) It was 'life begins at conception' (and hence: abortion is homicide) as a consensus that is recent. St Augustine and many others didn't believe in it.
Is this version of the meme not in fact correct? I just looked it up, and the Catholic Church doesn't seem to have made the shift towards (b) very explicit, but apparently it can be dated in a tacit form to 1869, when automatic excommunication was extended from abortion of a "formed fetus" to all abortion.
The church originally endorsed ensoulment at 40/80 days for boys/girls, citing Aristotle.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/83860/why-did-st-augustine-and-st-thomas-endorse-ensoulment-at-40-or-80-days
The Church still taught that abortions prior to ensoulment are grave sins. Science has all but proven that “life”, by any reasonable standard replicable across species, begins at/very near conception.
No, science has sown us that there is no beginning to lief at all. Nothing dead becomes alive in the process of gestation. Sperm and egg are alive after all. The question is not "when does life begin", It is "When should we consider a human person to exist (and at the other end of life ,When should personhood cease). Note the word "should". This is a normative question not a factual one.
This is a distinction without a difference; a distinct human organism as a biological entity comes into existence at/very near conception
Existence is not the issue. Personhood is. A human being whose heart has ceased beating is still genetically distinct (and may have many still-living cells). But we no longer call it a "person" with the legal rights thereof.
That's probably a good criterion for the beginning of life too: If there's heart beating or brain wave activity we grant the status of person.
What you’re looking for is metabolic activity. Heartbeat is a critical function of the human organism once it has developed to a certain point but it is not essential in the early stages of the development of a human organism. Metabolic activity is a standard applied to all organisms as a measure of life.
“Personhood” is a fundamentally moral claim which is related but not the same as identifying the start/end points for the lifecycle of a distinct human organism.
Sigh. Death is pronounced when A) the heart has ceased beating and cannot be restarted and/or B) brain activity is non-existent. Notwithsatnding that either or both may be true and there will still be "metabolic activity" in living cells.
Personhood is essential to all legal definitions of humankind. If a "person" is not there the organism does not have the legal status, or rights, of a person. Someday we may well meet sentient, or create sentient life ourselves (not holding my breath for that) aliens and we will have to revisit the question. But even then it will crucially depend on whether the creature displays mental abilities of a similar caliber as a human being. Which again points to something crucial: A human being traditionally, was a trinity of Body, Mind and Soul. If one is lacking can we call it a "human person"? Early development embryos have no mind-- it is absurd to grant them personhood status, just we do not grant such status to corpses, or to human tissue cultures no matter how long lived.
I don't think that's exactly "original" (Thomas Aquinas, for example, is closer to us in time than he is to the canonization of the New Testament, and even Augustine isn't by any means a figure of the 'early church'). I'm not sure there was an official church opinion for the first few centuries, but certainly Clement of Alexandria and Basil of Caesarea (IIRC) believed that ensoulment happened at conception.
The ancient and medievals had only the gauziest notion of what "conception" even was. It wasn't until the microscope was invented sperm and ova were discovered and a bit later the process of their joining. The genetic aspects of the process were not really clear until the 20th century.
I can confirm that the 'life begins at conception' idea is spreading among Christians that did not traditionally believe it. I'm seeing this happen in real time with my denomination. Officially we believe abortion, though a grave sin, is not murder, and we don't perform sacraments for miscarriages or stillbirths that we ordinarily would for infants (even deceased ones). But I'm seeing more and more 'life at conception' rhetoric among congregants. I imagine people pick it up from pro-life political circles. I always associated the idea with Catholicism and am a bit worried that this and the Catholic opposition to contraception are going to gain ground in my denomination.
I was raised Catholic, and wasn't aware until about last week that there were any denominations that believed life began at any point other than conception.
I remember it being explained to me as a kid. The moment of conception is when you get your full complement of genes and hence are a particular person rather than just a potential person.
Abortion has always been considered a **grave sin** in Roman Catholicism. Augustine, Aquinas, basically every pope ever, all agreed with this. The only real debate was over the science: if your only source is Aristotle you might just think that the soul begins a few months out. The hardening of the church's stance in the 1800s is due, according to the church, to new discoveries in embryology that contradicted that of Aristotle. It turns out there isn't a clear cutoff point of "animated" vs "not animated", so the church changed its doctrine based on the new science.
Compare this to e.g. the church's opinion on slavery. Some advocates of liberalization of abortion doctrine say that the church is behind the times and should change to fit modern ethics, in the same way it now is against slavery. Yet it took over 1000 years for the catholic church to go from "slavery is alright, just don't beat your slaves too much" to "slavery is ontologically evil". On the other hand, the catholic church has ALWAYS been anti-abortion, the only difference is in how harshly it has viewed it (is it "just" a mortal sin? Is it murder? Does it warrant excommunication?"). It has never viewed it as anything BUT evil and objectively sinful.
(self-righteous catholic screed warning, apologies in advance): Now, I'm sure protestants may have at some point formed some weird heresies about abortion, but like...most protestant beliefs that contradict the Catholic church don't really make much sense if you read the Bible, this is nothing new. It turns out that 2000 years of scholarship and tradition and apostolic succession leads you to a lot more robust of a theology than some random guy in Rhode Island whose source is "Jesus told it to me in a dream".
"It turns out that 2000 years of scholarship and tradition and apostolic succession leads you to a lot more robust of a theology than some random guy in Rhode Island"
Yeah, I agree. It's probably why worshipping Cthulhu isn't working. Oh well.
<mildSnark>
>apparently it can be dated in a tacit form to 1869, when _automatic_ excommunication was extended from abortion of a "formed fetus" to all abortion.
[emphasis added]
Conjures up a steampunk image of an excommunicator-o-matic, presumably using Jacquard loom technology :-)
</mildSnark>
There are acts that excommunicate you automatically, without any need for somebody to witness them, someone to judge you, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication_in_the_Catholic_Church#Latae_sententiae
Many Thanks! As you saw from the <mildSnark> </mildSnark>, I'm not intending this seriously. :-)
Imagine meeting people who insisted they had met the literal incarnation of love. I think it makes perfect sense that these early Christians were better approximations of Jesus himself.
Think of it in terms of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Of course Aristotle was closer to Socrates than any 2024 philosopher. And just like you don't expect modern philosophy professors to be Socrates, so you shouldn't expect modern Christians to be like the early apostles.
If those relative birth rates are right, that intersects with the "elite overproduction" issue in an absolutely fascinating way. If pre-Christian Roman elites weren't at replacement level, then their children all have decent opportunities and there's reasonable social mobility. But as those elites convert, both of those would come to a rapid close – and the logic of Secular Cycles would predict, well, the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
(And that's just focusing on the elite level. If Christian reproductive rates were higher in general, it'd also push Rome up against Malthusian resource constraints that much faster)
Interesting point. Of course I'm familiar with Gibbon's take, but has anybody suggested or given any evidence for seeing the fall of the Roman Empire as being caused by elite overproduction?
I wonder if there is something to do with decline, chaos, and poverty providing fertile breeding grounds for a doctrine of hope in the darkness. Nowadays, many people who come to find faith seem to do so at their darkest moments. Prisoners, recovering alcoholics, army veterans back from the front line. A religion that preaches a reversal of the previously tautology of strength = goodness will find support amongst those with nothing to lose.
Is it then a coincidence that this religion achieved its growth at a time of relative, and then absolute, decline? That the first emperor to convert did so at a moment of massive civil war and near civilizational collapse? Maybe this is a just-so story- but the rise of the imperial cult that became Christianity had its origins in the semi-monotheistic patronage structures of the Dominate that arose during the crises of the previous century. Aurelian's Sol, Diocletian's self identification with Jupiter primus parus - is it that surprising that Constantine chose a religion where man can become God who can become man given this context?
If such absolute claims didn't exist, it would be necessary to invent them. https://leifandthorn.com/comic/time-and-tides-2433/
You know, that analysis sounds interesting, but it's generalizing from a single case. Could we see how those factors apply at least to Buddhism and Islam, two other religions that had astonishing success in recruitment? Are there any common factors in those three cases?
"because the Romans practiced sex-selective infanticide, there were 130 men for every 100 women"
I've never heard of that before, which makes me skeptical.
Wikipedia says laconically: "reported gender ratios do not permit judgment on the prevalence of femicide".
Also, if you Google you'll find plenty of articles and studies that cast doubt on Roman sex-selective infanticide.
"Cooking was done over wood or charcoal braziers, which were also the only source of heat"
I've always heard that the Roman poor mostly bought their food already cooked.
"The total public baths capacity of Rome was about 30,000; the total population of Rome was about a million; in practice, the upper classes used the “public” baths and the average citizen had never bathed in their life."
Huh? That doesn't follow. 30,000 sounds like more than enough for everyone in Rome to bathe every week!
In fact, I've always heard the opposite (that everyone could afford the baths).
For example, by googling I quickly find someone who posted online the following quote:
An inscription from Puteoli prohibits the slaves who removed corpses in the town from using the baths before the first hour of night (Source: Garrett G. Fagan, 'Bathing in Public in the Roman World' — 2002).
Implying (1) that slaves were bathing, (2) that when the authorities felt that a type of slave was to be shunned they would limit their hours rather than ban them from the baths (3) that the baths were open past sunset and different people used them at different times of the day, so why wouldn't the bulk of the population have been able to bathe every week.
Contrast that with "the average citizen had never bathed in their life" which is a strange and extreme claim! How come nobody in the comments is contesting that one?
Thank you. This post seems to have taken some claims more uncritically than it should have. In combination with Scott’s recent odd choice to engage with the debate on the question of whether Christianity is uniquely valuable in supporting a modern liberal worldview, it seems to me that he might be engaging with a weird subculture I’m not aware of that treats this kind of early Christianity as uniquely memetically efficient on the basis of some weak evidence.
Thank you for this observation, Kenny. I don't exactly know why it strikes me as so refreshing. I consider myself part of the "weird subculture" you're referencing. The ACX community is a rather distinct, brilliant, and energetic subculture - an offshoot of LessWrong with substantial overlap.
I'm fascinated by it. It seems tech-, white-, silicon valley-based. Heavily influenced by the minds that have successfully developed and deployed the AI/LLMs, which is no small feat.
There's a lot of which I call "godthink" here - modeling out humanity and the human psyche across long arcs.
> Huh? That doesn't follow. 30,000 sounds like more than enough for everyone in Rome to bathe every week!
That's a good point. 1 million people with 30,000 public baths means if everyone bathed just once per week, you'd only average about 5 people per bath per day.
In 40 AD, there were a handful of adherents to the particular form of Judaism preached by Jesus.
By 400 AD there were tens of millions of adherents to the Greek/Roman pagan sect established by Paul and very loosely based on the life of Jesus.
In 40 AD there were zero adherents of that sect established by Paul!
Correct.
re Scandinavian/Nordic Christianiziation.
There are a couple of relevant factors here. First, this was an area that was the religious version of "epidemiologically naive". If you try Christian evangelism in a Muslim country, you will be met with vehement, and likely violent, opposition. But nothing like that happened in the areas of Norse religion. It had barely no institutions, and if you wanted to convert, that was your choice - it's only reasonable that you should go with the god that seems to give the better offer, after all! Sure, a missionary might be taken as an easy slave, but that's just practicality!
Second, this was definitely a case of Christianity from above. It's a really strong sell when you offer a king a set of loyal administrators with literacy. Norway and Finland in particular were Christianized through sword and fire wielded by kings.
Even in Rome, *with* institutions and an administrative apparatus, 10% seemed to be the critical mass where it became worth it to buy the loyalty of the Christian population, and then it's religious repression from there on.
>Sure, a missionary might be taken as an easy slave, but that's just practicality!
And probably would end up converting your household anyway.
Early Islam had the same advantage proselytizing to pagans.
Yes, with the addition of successful warfare and conquest. Once that's in place, it's easy-mode.
Greek and Roman philosophical schools had monotheistic formal beliefs, even while the masses practiced polytheistic Pagan rituals. If you know anything about contemporary Hinduism, it's a bit like that, because each Village in India has a temple to the monkey god or a temple to the god with too many arms or whatever, but then if you actually ask an Indian person what they believe they'll tell you that all those gods are just avatars of Krishna and that underneath the huge variety of different local temples they actually are some sort of monotheist. Ancient Greece and Rome were like that. The stoics had the idea of logos, which was an omnipresent Force which gave people access to truth. Pythagoras pioneered the trinity Doctrine, in his view God had one aspect which was Unity, one aspect which was duality, and one aspect which was logos. He was into triangles, so of course he had a three-part God. The idea of redemption in the afterlife was certainly present in Pythagoras but even goes back before him to Orpheus, who taught that if you did some weird rituals then you would still go to Hades but you would get to chill out in the palace with Persephone and it would be all cool. Pythagoras taught that you would be reincarnated as different animals depending on what sins you committed, and if you were really nice then your soul would become a star and go to heaven. I think the view of paganism that Scott presents in his post is overly dismissive. Empedocles, who is a student of Pythagoras, realized that he could be reincarnated as an animal and animals could be the incarnated as humans, and so animal sacrifices must be bad because everybody has essentially the same sort of soul. They were definitely Pagan schools teaching Universal compassion, even compassion for animals. These Greek ideas had a huge influence on early Christianity through the stoic School and in particular through Philo of Alexandria. In the prologue to John, logos is with God at the creation of the world, a stoic Doctrine. Empedocles went around resurrecting people and Performing healing miracles, according to accounts from the time anyway, And so people in Greek culture were already used to Saviors who would do most of the same things that Jesus later did. The origins of Christianity are really as a merger of the Greek philosophical schools with Judaism, not this sharp dichotomy that Scott shows in the post.
Why Christianity replaced the Greek philosophical schools I don't know. What I do know is that individuality is an innovation of the axial age. Think about the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament: in the Old Testament God is always punishing Jews collectively for their sins, and then by the New Testament you get the doctrine of salvation by faith which allows God to treat people as individuals. This transition from Collective to individual morality got lost during the Dark Ages, and happened again during the Enlightenment. When the plague hit in the Medieval era, people tried to improve their Collective morality to please God. Then Protestant religions started to strongly emphasize in practice individual morality. For the Catholics it had mostly become a matter of pure Doctrine which wasn't really implemented. The same transition from Collective to individual morality can be seen in a bunch of other places too. In empedocles's second metaphysical poem, from after he converted to the Pythagorean cult, shows preoccupation with individual sin, which is totally absent from his first metaphysical poem. In India, Buddhism and Jainism gained popularity during the axial age, while in China Taoism began to discuss individual morality. I think this transition has something to do with living under the rule of a competent surveillance state which can keep track of your individual actions. For a hunter-gatherer or somebody living in a small village, the most powerful entities they encounter are various aspects of nature, which mostly affect the group as the whole and don't respond to individual actions.. It takes a bureaucratic state to be a seemingly omnipotent entity which can track your individual morality. The first people to transition to individual morality in any society are City dwellers, an individual morality didn't really game Mass acceptance until revolutionary France managed to spread bureaucracy into the countryside in the late 18th century. Explaining why individual morality sometimes spreads easily and quickly is a slightly different question then what Scott set out to answer in this post, but it's clearly related because a lot of the later success of Christianity is spreading through regions of group morality during periods of massive State consolidation, such as when Colonial armies and missionaries arrive somewhere at the same time.
I think calling Hinduism "monotheist" is a great exaggeration- it would be fairer to say there are both polytheists and monotheists, as well as various things in between, under the Hindu umbrella.
I just have two additional points to make on this post, having studied the issue very thoroughly:
-The role of Graeco-Roman women in the spread of Christianity was, as Stark holds, absolute decisive. Michele Salzman’s calculations are very unconvincing because of many reasons, not the least being that they contradict loads of written evidence about the huge role of aristocratic women like Melania the Younger. In addition, the later historical record is filled with women pushing Christianity in hostile environments, from a massive number of Anglo-Saxon aristocrats (Elfleda, Kyneburga, Kyneswide, Tibba…) to Queen Olga, the person who did the most to Christianize Russia.
If you think about the conditions at the ground at the time, this makes sense. Graeco-Roman and other European cultures were the world’s most feminist (a pretty interesting historical constant) so that even the machoist Greeks were enlightened gender egalitarians compared with their Eastern neighbors, even those – like Armenians and Persians – who were not Semites. Christianity never offered women extra rights, as much it offered them protection from mistreatment and from being discarded, what Joseph Henrich called the MFP. This was very especially appealing to upper class women permanently exposed to the threat of divorce, concubinage, forced abortion, etc. Upper class Romans complained about nagging wives because, when you can sleep around as much as you want with no social or legal repercussions, paying no alimony and on top of that you have cash to buy beautiful slaves, wives can really appear like unnecessary baggage to your lifestyle. Wives understood this better than anyone else.
-A second, less relevant point, regarding martyrdom. Recent research is falling on the side that a lot of martyrdom stories that circulated in the late Roman period were pure inventions. This doesn’t really add much to the main thesis, and there were real Christian martyrs who had all the same motivations that Scott discusses in the post, so this should be read as blatant nitpicking.
What does MFP stand for?
The Marriage and Family Program.
>A Roman man would no more have respected his wife’s opinions than he would his dog’s
Is this really true? While there's a selection problem in that we would expect to tend to hear about exceptional and influential women even if that were not the norm, Roman history is replete with examples of politically active wives who almost certainly influenced their husbands actions. Fulvia more or less started a war on her husband's behalf!
> I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost.
This is a very good question with a somewhat obvious answer: social proximity to Jesus. If the thing really did spread along a social graph, and - like most signals - decayed in intensity as it spread, the early Christians were more directly exposed to the source so we should expect them to have been better able to imitate it.
It’s wild how even a hard headed rationalist has to reach the conclusion that this Jesus character must have been intensely loving, as a kind of evidentiary necessity.
By 300 AD Christians had less social proximity to Jesus than modern Americans have to George Washington.
Bit of an Approach to Al-Mu'tasim take on Christianity, that!
"Aesma and the Master of Ethics" sketches out an alternative theory with mostly similar empirical predictions: https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/aesma-and-the-three-masters-part-3-and-4/
I agree with this. I'm Mormon and the sheer amount of writings by and about brother Joseph, which really point to him being sincere, and this makes being "all in" the religion much easier. I can see why our religion really pushes for families to keep records of their spiritual experiences.
I would love to see a similar analysis regarding Jainism Vs Hinduism, and why this *didn't* happen.
Hinduism is terrible in many of the ways Roman paganism was terrible, if not even worse in certain social ways. Jainism, with its focus on non violence and looking after others, is a reasonable stand in for Christianity. What's missing? Were the Jains not persecuted enough? Is there something about the redemption story of Jesus that is particularly compelling? Is Hinduism better at keeping its downtrodden trodden down?
I have no idea why the lower castes haven't converted en masse to Christianity, or some better religion that offers them more. There were some mass conversions to Buddhism under Ambedkar, but way less than I would expect.
Jainism was.very demanding. A selling point of Buddhism is that it was less.so.
Jain’s, famously, are prohibited from proselytizing. If we imagine religions as a collection of random doctrines that are naturally selected for, perhaps this quirk of Jainism prevented its spread. Iirc tho there were 12 shramanic religions at the time of Jainism but it’s the only one that survived. One would think at least one would be chill with conversion. Who knows? Further, religious doctrine can change, yet, Jainism never bootstrapped a conversion doctrine. Perhaps the material benefits of converting your Hindu neighbors was minimal compared to the benefits of converting your pagan neighbors to Christianity, for purely geopolitical reasons
I was not aware of this prohibition on proselytizing; they don't, as a general matter, but neither do Sikhs very much despite both being universal religions. Is this prohibition within their texts directly? This is distinct from, say, the Zoroastrian Parsis, who agreed to not proselytise as a condition of entry into Gujarat during their flight from Iran (the apocryphal version of the story is great by the way, short version here: https://www.livemint.com/mint-lounge/food/a-sweet-dish-that-symbolises-how-parsis-made-india-their-home-111633508663477.html).
My understanding is that proselytizing is seen as an imposition of belief, which is a form of violence (himsa). There are no prohibitions on, say, living a good life that inspires others to convert, or to educating those already interested, but evangelizing is a different story. I do not know if this is directly from the texts, but I assume so.
Multiplicity of viewpoints is also probably relevant— epistemic humility is (at least in theory) considered a virtue, so that also adds reluctance to spread one’s own beliefs.
I asked a similar question separately and would chalk it up in part to a) geographical boundaries, plus b) proximity to Buddhism, which was also pervasive in surrounding empires.
Buddhism is an old but strong religion that conceivably did not fail to provide meaning in hard times, and the Chinese empire's strength was such that it would have been difficult to make inroads once trade really took off.
On the advantages of Christian goodness:
the Nazis persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses during WWII and many were put into concentration camps. They did comparatively well there because they didn't steal or lie unlike most of the inmates, and thus were trusted by both inmates and camp personel and often ended up as servants of the latter.
Ummm. This is a bit confusing. I'm kind of curious, but also not sure if you think the JWs were treated about the same as the Jews.
Nah, the JWs weren't treated as badly as the Jews. *Nobody* was treated as badly as the Jews by the Nazis; they were *obsessively* antisemitic.
Christianity's unique tenets aren't limited to "love". As someone else mentioned, there's the emphasis on the afterlife (going to Heaven or Hell) and especially the emphasis on *belief*. Christianity works like a chain email: "spread this message and you'll be rewarded; reject it and you'll be punished."
>*I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine."
The meme is correct as it applies to certain Protestants, some of whom became more anti-abortion in the 70's. Catholics and (not particularly relevant for U.S. politics) Eastern Orthodox were always anti-abortion, and the Protestant anti-abortion shift catalyzed the transition during that decade of white Catholics into a (weakly) reliable Republican bloc.
It's a bad meme because as we all know, the Left Cannot Meme.
Anyway, great review! You probably have my vote.
Surprised not to see discussion of Pascal's Wager in the "Because Jesus Is Lord" section. In purely selfish terms, Christianity promised you everlasting bliss if you let yourself be eaten by lions. Roman Paganism said that if you became a legendary hero then *maybe*, maybe you'd get to hang out in a bit of the Underworld that has flowers in it, and it didn't even say that being particularly pious would help with this. Of *course* people flocked to Christianity, whether it brought out the sincere goodness of their heart or not.
> But there are billions of people who believe in God today, and it barely seems to help them.
Imagine that, when people first learn the idea of a loving god who wants them to help others, they take it seriously.
Backscratching club dynamics are in play. In the early days, the advantage of being in the club is large.
But once the club is formed, you can afford to be 1% less self sacrificing and not get kicked out. And then another 1%. And another 1%.
Humans have a tendency to say what others say, and to do what others do, with the coupling often not being the strongest. If you see examples of other Christians sacrificing their lives, you are more likely to do the same. If you see everyone else paying lip service to Christianity, you will do likewise.
So modern Christians might say the same words, but their in practice action space is very different.
A lip service Christian would likely have gotten kicked out of those early Christian groups. And such a culture hadn't evolved yet.
One of the most thoughtful communities discussing one of my favorite books — what a way to start the day!
Scott writes:
>>"Maybe we should think of early Christianity the same way - when the idea of love first struck a population without antibodies. If so, we may not see its like again."
Rodney Stark died a couple years ago, but he started an avalanche of careful historical thinking about Christianity's big effects — especially on the idea of love. If anyone's looking for more to dig into, I recommend Sarah Ruden's "Paul Among the People: The Apostle Reinterpreted and Reimagined in His Own Time" (amzn.com/dp/0385522576). She asks, simply, "when the average Roman read one of Paul's letters, what would they have heard?"
Unlike Stark, Ruden IS a classical historian — one (helpfully!) whose academic training focused not on parsing e.g. big philosophical texts, but on interpreting daily life. I'm a former Christian, and I'll say that before the book I concluded that Paul was an anti-pleasure, anti-woman, anti-gay zealot who thought the world was about to end. Now, I think that Paul was a zealot of radical love... who, yup, definitely thought the world was about to end!
And this "the end is coming!" helps solve the puzzle of how these Christian communities were able to act so radically. I think that Stark misses this? It's been a few years since I've studied him, but I don't recall him talking much about the apocalyptic aspect of Paul and early Christians.
(As a side note, Ruden's book is simply and gorgeously written. One of the best books on Christianity I've ever read. Highly recommended to anyone who's into this sort of thing.)
(Also Tom Holland's "Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World", which, Scott, I think a lot of us would love to hear your take on!)
On the question of why early Christians were so virtuous, here's something I wonder: if your life is objectively crappy, as it seems it was for Roman city-dwellers, does that make it easier to self-sacrifice? If you are weighing a choice between the status quo vs death + eternal fame + an exalted afterlife, it makes sense that the better living conditions in the modern world would tip the scales to one side. And maybe this has an outsized effect as being a martyr starts to become less and less "normal." I don't know how much this can explain, or even if it is directionally true.
I often have wondered this. If I woke up tomorrow and found to my surprise that I was now fantastically rich, good looking and clever, would I not suddenly become incredibly risk-averse?
That's why rich people have lower murder rates than poor people, and modern people have lower murder rates than ancient people, after all. They have more to lose.
I can say, with an n of 1, that after reaching 25x expenses, I started to think less about what people thought of me, and after reaching 50x expenses, I actually started to think about having kids for the first time, since if the ex-wife takes half I theoretically could still retire. (Ironically, people here talked me out of it--I'm too old. Also, probably not true with alimony and child support being increased to take some of my significant assets.)
So my risk tolerance actually increased slightly (from a very low baseline) as my net worth rose.
Excellent article. My only factual quibble is whether Christianity was truly a religion of the upper classes. I'm no historian, but I've read one quote often cited about early Roman disdain for Christians, from Celsus, a 2nd-century Greek philosopher who criticized Christianity in his work The True Doctrine. Celsus complained about Christianity as a religion that attracted the lowly and uneducated, especially women and slaves:
> "Their injunctions are like this: 'Let no one educated, no one wise, no one sensible draw near. For these abilities are thought by us to be evils. But as for anyone ignorant, anyone stupid, anyone uneducated, anyone who is a child, let him come boldly.' By the fact that they themselves admit that these people are worthy of their god, they show that they want and are able to convince only the foolish, dishonorable, and stupid, and only slaves, women, and little children."
This quote seems to reflect the disdain some elite Romans had for Christianity's appeal to the disenfranchised, whom they viewed as inferior. Celsus's critique appears to captures the attitude that many Romans had toward Christianity in its early years, perceiving it as a movement primarily of the lower classes.
To me this makes intuitive sense if you think about how Christian theology affirms that worth comes not from being a man, or being rich, or being powerful, or anything the pagan or even secular world today might value; rather our worth comes from the fact that God found us worth dying for -- and that is a free gift available to all, no matter who you might be.
I had the same quibble. The claim that early Christianity was primarily an upper-class movement does not seem to be the consensus among historians. Instead, Christianity's base in the first few centuries was centered around the middle and lower strata of Roman society. It wasn't until the middle fourth century and later that Roman elites converted to Christianity in larger numbers. ACOUP has a post on this exact topic: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/07/new-acquisitions-class-status-and-the-early-church/
The "'Paganism' and class" section of this post also has some discussion of the shifting class composition of the early church: https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2024/01/14/dont-blame-paganism-for-the-united-states-problems/
>We Jews tell ourselves that we left Israel only after the Romans kicked us out.
Classical Jewish sources attest to diaspora Jewish presence before the Jewish-Roman wars, and there are plenty of references to that in later Jewish sources and traditions.
For the perfect virtue point, it's possible that Christianity against a background of paganism has a different psychology and emphasis that Christianity against a background of Christianity/Post-Christianity.
It's a just-so story, but plausibly in a culture where everyone practices a religion based on transactional sacrifices, early Christians get the view that martyrdom is a fairly literal kind of self-sacrifice and by becoming a Christian you expect to die as a result and go up to God (which doesn't seem bad when on any given day you could plausibly be killed by your horrific environment). Later on, slowly building up a community of broadly virtuous people and dying naturally in it seems more like the end goal of Christianity, and the need for virtue becomes less pronounced.
>>Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine. This is absolutely not true. The Didache, the first Christian text outside the New Testament itself, probably dating from about 90 AD, says that “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born”.
Scott, this seems an embarrassing error for someone of your insightfulness. Since you are confessing it in characteristic humility, I'll forgive you, but let me recommend as penance following up with Tom Holland's (another secular historian) book Dominion. Optionally, also realize that so much of what you love came from Christ and find a nearby church to raise your children in.
Scott isn't Christian or from a Christian background so I can't fault him for not being conversant with the fine details of intra-Christian debates on any topic.
Which also means I can't fault him for falling for the same line of propaganda as the "pro-lifers only want to punish women for having sex, because if they really believed abortion was murder, they'd be out there bombing abortion clinics!" stuff.
It is not that Scott should have known more about Christianity--though he should, everyone should.
It is that arguments in the form of "I know more than my opponent about their own worldview" should be rather more suspect.
Dominion was already shared/reviewed here.
I'm... embarrassed that it didn't make an impression on me. Thanks.
Wait, are you referring to the animal rights book? Because that is by a different author. (And hence, most of the words in the interior are different as well. Or at least the ordering of them, which is surprisingly important!)
I even recommended this interview previously:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYkP46aYQIs&list=PLxUGWS5lRaqonEcGB8UrbOoUxbGnh-g_C&index=2
You should take the next step and convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It really is as cool as it sounds! The women are attractive and the men are decent. The doctrines are pro-natal and pro-social, and all the children are above average. God is real and Christ sacrificed himself so you can have Eternal Life. His truth is restored on Earth through prophets to guide us through these strange times. It all makes rational sense and you will find joy.
My two favorite drinks are beer and coffee, so that's a barrier.
Mormons can drink Monster Energy Zero Ultra...if that's your jam
if the sermon of the mount were delivered today I have a feeling one of the verses would be somewhere along the lines of:
Ye have heard it was said by them of old time, thou shalt not drink coffee.
But I say unto you that whosoever imbibe any impure and unwholesome drink works destruction upon their own body.
you know, the whole repudiation of a literal reading of the letter of the law that the Lord was known for
>But I say unto you that whosoever imbibe any impure and unwholesome drink works destruction upon their own body.
<mildSnark>
The next stage fallback is eating, (not drinking), chocolate covered coffee beans :-)
</mildSnark>
Sorry, too busy worshipping the Queen of Heaven and praying to the dead and offering to idols and buying souls out of Purgatory, but thanks for the offer!
Mormons believe in a Heavenly mother btw
Sounds like an argument from consequences.
I don't think anyone should convert to Mormonism because I believe it is not a true religion.
However readers of this blog who are interested in Mormonism would also probably be interested (or at least amused) to find out about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, which is exactly what it sounds like. Also interesting to see the aspects of Mormon theology that make the idea viable.
Yes I converted to Mormonism (LDS) because of the theology. I independently concluded that the theology worked best with where science is headed and the independent theology I made while seeking a church. Mormons believing humans have become immortal (via achieving LEV is completely congruent with doctrine) and seeded simulated universes/or even just plain seeded planets a la aronffsky's "postcard from earth" or the 2004 BSG type of situation is so much more believable than "The Force" that Christianity believes in.
I think he's married already, but with all the sci-fi writers it seems like a pretty congenial religion for nerds.
A lot of the whole thing seemed to me like a way to make living in 1950s America still practical. Laudable, in my view--stuff like Family Home Evening seemed hokey to me but probably very good for those of you trying to live normal lives.
The biblical scholar Bart Ehrman cites Stark a lot in his work, and agrees with his thesis of gradual exponential growth, but believes Stark is a bit off on the numbers. He thinks the number of Christians a Jesus' death was significantly smaller, and the growth rate slightly higher. He argues that one of Christianity's biggest advantages was, Roman paganism wasn't evangelistic. Christianity was competing against a religion which often passively accepted new gods, but had no strong defenses against "also, you have to stop believing in your old ones," because it had never had to contend with that.
"We Jews tell ourselves that we left Israel only after the Romans kicked us out."
> Even a cursory reading of the Hebrew Bible belies that notion. Even in the days of the Achamenaid empire, Jews were scattered all over it (cf. Esther).The book of Jeremiah describes a refugee Jewish population in Egypt. The book of Isaiah suggests Jews scattered as far as Tarshish (likely present-day Spain). This is not a new phenomenon; the book of Ruth describes Jews headed to south Jordan 800 years before Isaiah wrote.
Folk historiography often contradicts official sources.
Archaeological evidence for Jews outside Israel also exists at around 500-400 BCE. There was substantial enough Jewish settlement in upper Egypt for a large cache of letters to be preserved.
Which of the official sources or folk historiography is more often accurate in these cases of contradiction? Is there a clear trend?
And the works of Josephus in the first century AD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiquities_of_the_Jews
"Antiquities of the Jews ...is a 20-volume historiographical work, written in Greek, by historian Josephus in the 13th year of the reign of Roman emperor Domitian, which was 94 CE. The book contains an account of the history of the Jewish people for Josephus's Gentile patrons. In the first ten volumes, Josephus follows the events of the Hebrew Bible beginning with the creation of Adam and Eve.
The second ten volumes continues the history of the Jewish people beyond the biblical text and up to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE). This work, along with Josephus's other major work, The Jewish War (De Bello Iudaico), provides valuable background material for historians wishing to understand 1st-century CE Judaism and the early Christian period."
Do you think either of these are relevant?
Christianity doesn't let you worship other gods and paganism does.
Christianity promises eternal life in heaven.
There’s an even easier explanation for the growth of Christianity, sponges and sycophants. In a world filled with poverty, a group going around giving out free alms is attractive whether or not you buy into their truth claims. Especially when you consider that so many Christian saints and festivals are pagan figures and rituals with the serial numbers filed off, you start to realise how little “pure” Christianity was getting through.
"Especially when you consider that so many Christian saints and festivals are pagan figures and rituals with the serial numbers filed off"
That is an entire other row which I won't have right this minute, but you are in good timing getting that old chestnut out for upcoming Christmas! Give the media a couple more weeks before the "did the Star of Bethlehem really happen?" and "have you ever heard of Sol Invictus?" stories get going in the annual tradition of "Christmas ain't Christian" 😁
Please note that I don’t employ this point to discredit Christianity as a phenomenon, I see syncretism as both inevitable and positive. Think how dull Christianity would be without additional feasting and fertility rites. In fact you don’t have to think, you can just look at how JWs live. Poor oddballs.
Right, that’s how my yearly conversation over Christmas with my aunt goes. She was delighted when she learned that my brother and I agreed that there was probably at least one man called Jesus who actually lived and preached in first-century Palestine.
Really excellent post, aside from this remark: "Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine. This is absolutely not true. The Didache, the first Christian text outside the New Testament itself, probably dating from about 90 AD, says that “Thou shalt not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born”.
It sounds like the author misunderstood that liberal meme, which is well-researched and significantly more specific than 'republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion'. Evangelical and Protestant opposition to abortion (significantly softer than the latter) and Catholic opposition to abortion were two very different things until they were brought into alignment!
Yes, there's a deep and complex history here. A lot happened before 1960!
Regarding abortion, remember that the modern construct of pregnancy is something possible only with modern medicine and home pregnancy tests. Prior to the modern era, an early-term pregnancy would not have been observable, and medication to "restore the menses" would not necessarily have been considered abortion/infanticide.
This debate continues into the modern day, with some sincere but extreme interpretations of abortion holding that hormonal contraception is tantamount to abortion because it might prevent the implantation of a fertilized ovum.
Regarding morality:
> I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost.
The answer might just be distinction. Minorities are always implicitly defined in contrast to the majority, and as a persecuted minority early Christians may have decided that "we're nice" was one such axis. Along that axis, it would have been relatively easy to adopt practices that are distinct from the pagan majority yet also make for good public relations.
As today's cultural hegemon, modern Christians no longer have that easy contrast. Without that ready comparison, "we're nice" exists on a floating, relativistic scale, and as a cultural hegemon it's sometimes easier to bend the measurement scale than to do hard things to succeed by the original definitions.
I agree with you about distinction. The Amish still seem very Christian in the ancient sense.
I wonder if one of the most high-impact things a time-traveler might to is sneak a book on housing construction and germ theory into the council of Nicaea.
“And verily I tell you, that when a man receives an illness of this kind, he is afflicted like the wicked man who, seeing all the wickedness of the world, spits yet more wickedness. By his spitting, coughing, hacking and sneezing he spreads his illness to others. Thus should a man afflicted cover his face and turn away from his fellow men.”
“Shall he cover his face with his hands?” Asked the congregation.
“No! He shall not cover with his hands, for it is with the hand that he must give thanks to God and give charity to his fellow man. He should cover with a cloth or the crook of his arm, and he should cast away the cloth and clean his body afterwards, that the corruption should not linger upon them.”
People often say what a difference a particular book would make to the ancients. But the ancients did have the germ theory of disease. Varro talks specifically about microorganisms in 37BC. Presumably there was a Greek source that was more detailed about the theory. The Greeks had lots of theories in the Library of Alexandria, but the Romans didn't understand them. You start by talking about theories, but all your suggestions are concrete applications discarding the reasons. There is already lots of sanitation advice in the bible, what's one more? For that matter, the Romans already had relatively good sanitation, both in cities and in military camps.
Does Stark go into any of the other contemporaneous, competing mystery cults? Plenty of people have beaten the "Christianity appropriated the trappings of XYZ" horse to death - with varying levels of success - but at the very least it points to memetically fertile ground. You say that the rise of Christianity would be surprising, and as a specific outcome I agree, but I could also totally see a conversation playing out in 20 AD:
"Hey FABIVS, I just took a trip into the future, and it turns out one of the mystery cults becomes the state religion in just a few centuries!"
"Oh really, GAIVS? Which one? Was it the cult of Isis, or maybe Bacchus? They throw the best parties, after all."
"Nah, it was a Jewish-derived one with a focus on purity and community."
"Huh, I guess that could make sense. Wouldn't be my first pick though."
"Also a irrepressible evangelical streak. And tons of women."
"Ah."
Bacchus didn't have a "cult" in the modern sense of the word. In ancient Polytheism the "cult" of a particular god is simply the infrastructure dedicated in service of that god. But people don't just dedicate themselves to one god. They serve the "cult" of Bacchus if they've got something to celebrate, Mars if they have a war to fight etc.
Christianity is very different from these cults because it explicitly denied their value and demands you dedicate yourself to Christ exclusively.
In a backdrop of polytheistic syncretism, sure, cults aren't exclusive in the way we might* consider modern religions to be. My point is that the mystery cults provided/demonstrated a role for siloed-off belief systems that could exist alongside and draw support off of the dominant pluralistic state religion. Christianity was unusual in its bright-line refusal to incorporate Jupiter (and the emperor), but it wasn't rare for individuals to strongly favor a niche faith.
(*Successive incorporation of earlier Abrahamic faiths is low-hanging fruit, but consider: is Jesus obviously an incarnation of Vishnu, or obviously an incarnation of Brahma?)
Bacchus wasn't a mystery cult though.
Bacchus was integrated into the pantheon, and also there continued a Bacchic branch of the pre-existing Dionysian/Orphic Mysteries. Iris had her own loooong established role in Egypt, but she both got syncretized with Ceres and spun out her own cult - when I named her above, I was specifically thinking of the temple in Pompeii. And let's not even start on Cybele!
In Greece at least there was a cult of Dionysiac Mysteries. The myth central to isn't something you'll find in Bullfinch's Mythology or even Athenian tragedy.
"is Jesus obviously an incarnation of Vishnu"
I say "no" very vehemently, but some people like to do art about it:
https://vedicambassador.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/jesus-and-krishna/
See, I think I'm on the Brahma side of the fence (too?). But it is *hard* to escape Krishna's gravitational pull.
Yep, that's where we get the term "cultus" from, as in "cult of the saints/of a particular saint".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_(religious_practice)
"In the Catholic Church, outward religious practice in cultus is the technical term for Roman Catholic devotions or veneration extended to a particular saint, not to the worship of God. Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church make a major distinction between latria, the worship that is offered to God alone, and dulia, which is veneration offered to the saints, including the veneration of Mary, whose veneration is often referred to as hyperdulia."
Hah. I'd love to see LVCIVS enter the conversation (in human form or not).
In human form? What are you referencing?
Apuleius, The Golden Ass (aka The Metamorphoses)
I've just embarrassed myself.
Why? Are you a classicist?
I'm bald, but I'm not doing this one.
Yeah this was my first thought: Mithraism, Sol Invictus, and a whole bunch of other religions and cults are a natural control group: do we have any evidence on what their growth rates were like in the period they were competing with Christianity? When did Christianity decisively pull ahead? Can we identify any factors that explain why Christianity pulled ahead?
"I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine."
This is incorrect in several senses.
First, as far as I know, liberal memes don't deny that <i>Catholicism</i> has always been anti-abortion. Of course there might be a few exceptions—you can always find a few people to argue anything (in the future, everything will be believed by fifteen people)—but broadly this is true. The claim, rather, is that <i>Protestant</i> Christianity weren't anti-abortion. (Or, rather, weren't strongly and unwaveringly anti-abortion; they were conflicted about it.) This distinction also explains Scott's citations on the other side: Protestants changed a <i>lot</i> of pre-1517 Catholic doctrine, saying that Christianity supported something before 1517 doesn't necessarily speak to anything about Protestant beliefs.
Second, the relevant date isn't 1960, but rather some year in the late 1970s—importantly, after <i>Roe v Wade</i> in 1973.
Third, as as correctly stated, the meme isn't false, but true.
Here's what <i>Christianity Today</i>, one of the leading Protestant magazines, had to say about abortion (and birth control) in 1968: https://www.christianitytoday.com/1968/11/protestant-affirmation-on-control-of-human-reproduction/ Not entirely in favor, but definitely willing to approve it in a wide variety of circumstances. Note that that is a primary source, not a liberal interpretation. (If you want a liberal interpretation— which, however, links to and quotes other primary sources—I recommend this pair of posts by Fred Clarke: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/ and https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/03/22/mischief-follows-in-partisan-bible-translations/).
This also tracks politically: most pro-life activists prior to <i>Roe</i>—the ones who experienced <i>Roe</i> as a political earthquake—were Catholic. Protestants became big supporters of the cause, but only after five or six years had passed. Paul Weyrich speaks of trying to interest American Evangelicals in abortion in 1978-1979, and finding that most weren't that concerned about it. Ten years later, of course, things had changed.
So yes, the idea that Christianity was neutral on abortion pre-1960 is false. But the <i>actual</i> liberal claim, that Protestant Christianity (at least in America) was not militantly anti-abortion, and in fact approved it in some circumstances, pre-1978, is, in fact, true.
On the Christianity Today article, the relevant section seems to specifically reject "abortion on demand or for convenience only" and affirm three (what we would call) exceptions based on the ACOG statement: 1) "When continuation of the pregnancy may threaten the life of the woman or seriously impair her health," 2) "When pregnancy has resulted from rape or incest," 3) "When continuation of the pregnancy is likely to result in the birth of a child with grave physical deformities or mental retardation."
It's interesting to me that this would seem to be the 'moderate' pro-life position today, and the one that could likely win a majority of voters to its cause. The only outstanding issue would be if before a certain gestational week, it was permissible to have "abortion on demand."
If that were the pro-choice position, and the gestational week limit was something like many European countries (e.g. 1st trimester), I think we would have much less intensity around this issue. Majority pro-life states would allow abortion only in the extreme circumstances the ACOG mentioned, and majority pro-choice states would have that plus elective abortion in the 1st trimester. Pro-lifers could argue in favor of the sanctity of a 1st trimester baby, and pro-choicers could argue in favor of abortion on demand, but the extremes (late 2nd/3rd trimester abortions, pregnant children unable to get access to an abortion) would not be occurring, so this would be more academic.
I realize that the above presupposes no state really has a majority that wants unlimited abortion post-viability (or however else you want to describe the cutoff) or a total abortion ban with no/too few exceptions. I admit that might be too big of an assumption.
As with divorce and evangelicals-- then and now-- the CT article on abortion is squishy. It opposes abortion on demand, but its tone makes it support abortion-for-convenience. The common evangelical indifference to divorce today is a scandal. Of course, Catholics are indifferent to it too in practice, with easy annulments and truning blind eyes.
Stephen, I am not sure Catholics were always against abortion since Saint Tomas de Aquino defended the "later homization" theory: a human in formation would be a complete one (body + soul) some time after conception (firstly body, months later, body + soul). This was an aristotelian theory incorporated by Aquinas. The main reason were the knowledge on that time about what was happening in pregnancy. Today some new-tomists using the nowadays biological knowledge (20 weeks until fetus develops scencience) accepts woman's rights to early abortion. I am Catholic and agree with this. Two reasons: 1) new-tomism is right; 2) if new-tomism is wrong this still implies abortion act is wrong but mot mplies that the right to abort is unaccetable (Biden position). But you are right that first Christians comndened abortion (Didaqué, year 100ac) and in general Catholic people too untill now.
Historically, "quickening" was that point after which abortion was illegal in the law. Did any abortions (illegal) happen before quickening? If not, the "when does life begin" issue may not have come up except in theory.
Women have been using sometimes-dubious abortifacent drugs after missing a single period (and thus before quickening) for ages. In e.g. most of the early 20th century US, this would have technically constituted an illegal abortion under at least some conditions, but it would have been basically unprovable and so was rarely if ever prosecuted.
The issue didn't become live until reliable pregnancy tests became common.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/1968/11/protestant-affirmation-on-control-of-human-reproduction/ Very useful. My pastor says that his old family doctor, C. Everett Koop, is the reason evangelicals decided abortion was murder. Koop was smart, and made this his issues. Before that, evangelicals, being weak on thinking things out theologically or philosophically, hadn't really well formed opinions except "abortion is bad". This would be an interesting history-of-thought process to track down. Note that abortion was illegal under the common law and in most (all states) because of Protestants, not Catholics-- but it was through cultural protestantism.
My understanding is that it was a handful of people of whom Koop was definitely one. Paul Weyrich has talked about trying to get evangelicals to care about abortion at the beginning of this process & failing.
"Protestant</i> Christianity weren't anti-abortion"
I don't see how that can possibly be true. Abortion was illegal in every state before the late 1960s. It was also illegal in England, which had been protestant since the 1550s or so.
I can't speak to the history of England. But in the U.S., abortion was illegal before the 1960s, but that wasn't primarily due to Protestantism qua Protestantism. Before the mid-19th century, I believe, abortion was only illegal after quickening, which tracks pretty closely with a moderate pro-choice position today. The move to ban abortion in the 19th century was part of the development of medical science: one of the domains that doctors waged a social campaign to take over was childbirth (prior to that the domain of women, particularly midwives). There was a physician's group, the Physicians’ Crusade Against Abortion, which began in 1857 and had a lot. of success getting abortion illegal. (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/10/health/arizona-abortion-ban-history.html)
I'm not saying that Protestantism was like "yay! abortion! let's kill all the 8-month fetuses!" or anything like that. But their point of view was more nuanced—again, before quickening is essentially what moderate pro-choice people believe today (save in cases of medical necessity, which would not have been known about then). It was in the late 70s that the move from a nuanced position to a hard-core, part of our identity belief which it was by the mid 1980s.
Well, if people are going to say “Protestants don’t care about abortion” then they definitely need to speak to the history of England and other Protestant countries, and if they find that abortion was illegal in those countries until very recently, then they need to explain why that doesn’t destroy their claim. Also, generally speaking the American colonies simply continued to employ English law except where expressly contravened by statute after gaining independence, meaning that if abortion was illegal in England it was also illegal in the newly independent states even if they hadn’t passed a statute specifically addressing abortion. Abortion was illegal only after quickening across the Christian world from long ago, fundamentally because people weren’t sure the fetus was alive before that. So if “abortion illegal only after quickening” = “moderately pro-choice,” then the Catholic Church has really been pro-choice all along.
Well, sure, to defend a different claim that I'd made you'd need different evidence than I had. But to repeat, the claim I am defending is "that Protestant Christianity (at least in America) was not militantly anti-abortion, and in fact approved it in some circumstances, pre-1978", and that that changed dramatically over the subsequent decade.
The story is even more complicated. The guy who almost single-handedly flipped US protestants on this issue (and making a political, not just a personal issue) was Francis Schaeffer, who was encouraged to do so by his son, Frank Schaeffer. Francis died in 1984, but Frank is still alive and frequently bemoans what he unleashed on the US.
https://meaningness.com/schaeffers-religious-right
https://meaningness.com/monism-dualism-countercultures (look for: Unifying politics and religion; once you read that the material before it will make more sense and seem more relevant)
To me this whole sorry story is a stand-in for most politics as driven by political entrepreneurs. Someone gets a bee in their bonnet about some issue and goes in for "raising awareness". This unleashes a dragon that can't be controlled (because most people are idiots, and whatever subtleties you might have seen in an issue disappear the moment raising awareness appears, with all that implies in terms of advertising and sound bites).
Fifty years later you're weeping in the ruins, realizing that maybe teenagers, even teenage you, are not the best advisers on how to steer politics.
And you've created a generation who, while the elders understood that what was going on was tactical, did not pass that understanding on to their kids who have simply lived their entire lives being told this was the most important issue of their time.
Relevance to other political movements left to the reader.
No, Francis Schaeffer did not single-handedly flip US Protestants on abortion and it’s hard to believe anyone outside the Schaeffer family could believe such a ludicrous claim.
I find these conspiracy theories on American Protestants and abortion very silly. In 1967 abortion was illegal everywhere in the USA. In 1973 it was legal, indeed a constitutional right, via court diktat. That’s why Protestants (some of them) mobilized. Not a mystery.
Be careful a bit with Mormon analogies at least as they count members much more liberally than most churches; it's probably something like 1/3 of people they report as members would consider themselves Mormon if asked so the membership growth doesn't look as impressive if you use interdependent measures. For example, survey data seems to put them pretty consistently 1-2% of the population since about 1980. That puts them more in-line with other 19th century new religious movements like Jehovah's witnesses or 7th day Adventists.
But still, being in the top 3 or so of new religion growth rates out of the hundreds (thousands?) of new religions is still impressive. A few thoughts on why:
1) Isolation. Mormonism had a schism after Joseph Smith's death. The group that went off to Utah grew very quickly, the group that stayed mingled with the "gentiles" much less so. If there was something innate about Mormonism that caused it to grow, why have the non-Brigham Young branches failed to notable grow? Was it an innovation of the Brighamite branch or the fact that they isolated themselves in Utah?
The most visible candidate for an innovation being the cause of the growth would be polygamy (Brigham Young enthusiastically adopted Smith's polygamous practices, the other sects of Mormonism firmly rejected it); however, studies seem to indicate that polygamous women had lower birth rates than monogamous ones. And polygamy mostly phased out after one or two generations.
The Brighamites also had an early advantage with the conversion route. The way the early Mormon leadership split went, those who were in charge of managing the missionary work were all Brighamites. So they already had the infrastructure set up to keep the conversion mill going and were obviously the branch that missionaries would have pointed new converts into. However, with our "MBA" hat on, this seems like only a temporary advantage that others sects could quickly replicate, and so maybe not a great way to gain market share.
Another big difference is that the Brighamites moved west and were isolated for the next hundred years. And this to me seems the most plausible. You start out with near 100% of the population in one area being Mormon and per the social network theory of conversion discussed in the article, it's really easy to keep that ball rolling for a long time. However, this doesn't seem to be why early Christians grew so quickly.
2) Huge status gains for converts (and missionaries who convert them!). Kind of like early Christians seemed to give huge status gains for martyrs, Mormon culture gives huge status gains for converts. Most Mormons could tell you about their ancestor that first converted and they're revered and respected for generations. Converts get to be adopted into that and be told that they'll be the ones that their descendants will be revering and respecting for generations to come.
3) Albion's Seed. Most of the early Mormons were the same stock of New England Puritans who seem to succeed at everything. Demographically and culturally, they're almost like a New England state that got picked up and dropped down in the mountain west. I'm not sure if they have outlier success if you consider New England states their peers.
Mormonism was also building off Christianity and the fervent of revivalism in the United States. They might have been heretical, but they weren't asking you to worship an entirely new set of gods. So there was a wedge for them to get into ordinary life and society of the time and peel off converts.
Christianity was different - you couldn't just add Jesus to the list of deities/spirits you and your family traditionally worshipped, it was all or nothing.
Mormonism doesn't ask you to worship a new set of gods but it does ask you to BELIEVE in a new set of gods. Most Mormons will deny this, but as a lapsed Mormon I will have intimate knowledge that this is true.
People are amazed when they learn that Hindus believe in thousands of gods. I can confirm that Mormons believe in trillions of gods... In fact, in in an infinity of gods, since each God was created by a previous God, unto infinity. This is explicitly lined out in the Mormon hymn "If You Could Hie To Kolob." In case you were wondering, I still maintain this cosmology. Just because I rejected the LDS church, that doesn't mean I rejected its cosmology. I will continue to believe in this until I have a compelling reason not to.
The Strangites were the second biggest branch of Mormonism in the decade after Joseph Smith's death, with maybe 12,000 members at their peak. They also practiced polygamy. And isolated themselves on Beaver Island in Lake Michigan.
The church largely fell apart after Strang was murdered in 1856. They currently have ~130 active members.
https://www.ldsstrangite.com/faq.html
"At least Scientology has a lot of money and a cut-throat recruitment arm! At least they fight back when you persecute them! At least they seem to be in the game!"
They also have a navy!
So did we!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_Navy
My eight years of formal Catholic schooling were pretty light on the Papal States.
I don't see what the link to self-abnegation has to do with self-abnegation. Is it an error?
>Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine.
As a liberal, I was surprised to read this because this doesn't match the version I've always heard at all. The liberal story I've always heard is that in the 60's and 70's the Catholics were strongly anti-abortion and as a result the Protestants were at least slightly in favor of it, pretty much entirely because of their hatred of Catholics. The big change came in the 80's, driven almost entirely by a few people who felt very strongly about it, and that it spread so well because the anti-Catholic animus was fading and the Republican party was looking for new moral panics now that the big conflicts over the Civil Rights movement had passed.
Regarding this, birth control had been widely accepted by Protestant denominations by the 70s/80s. Abortion, in the sense of "danger to the life of the mother", was also accepted (but considered last-resort) unlike Catholicism. So the mainline Protestant denominations, as they liberalised with the spirit of the times, also tended to follow (albeit lagging behind) the idea of undoing the restrictions around abortion in the name of compassion, etc.
The Evangelicals got pulled in by the Catholics because the Catholics had the consistent theology and history of opposition, and when the liberalisation of abortion went *too* hard in the direction contrary to what their beliefs as non-denominationalists/non-mainliners could accept, then the natural allies and leaders were the durn Papists 😁
My understanding is that abortion was prohibited early on in America, but Protestants (including Southern Baptists) had largely come around by the time of Roe v. Wade, only to be persuaded by pro-life Catholics.
Given his stated beliefs, you have to appreciate Scott’s intellectual honesty in going even beyond Stark to ponder whether there really is something to Christianity as a moral/intellectual framework that is responsible for its spectacular success.
For those who have become Christianity-curious after reading this, the late pastor Tim Keller’s “Questioning Christianity” talks are a great place to start for engaging with the intellectual and moral arguments even a secular person would have to honestly wrestle with in order to determine the claims of Christianity are worth any merit.
Link: https://qcpodcast.gospelinlife.com/
Description: Questioning Christianity with Tim Keller is a seven-part podcast series for people who are interested in exploring Christianity, brought to you by Gospel in Life. This series will help listeners work through tough questions like: Can there be moral absolutes? Does life have meaning beyond what I make of it? Can hope exist in the face of death? Each of the talks and Q&A sessions were given by Tim Keller in 2019 before a live gathering in New York City, made up primarily of attendees who did not identify as Christian.
Regarding Roman fertility: hard not to see modern parallels with role reversal by gender. Since Trump was elected I've seen multiple stories about something called the 4B movement -- basically women not wanting to have anything to do with men. Also hard not to see the parallels between infanticide and abortion.
...Obviously that's not going to work as well though. Women aren't in a position to make demands like that. Push comes to shove, men will get what they want.
Says who? Lots of women (and quite a few men) do fine without sex or marriage.
Of course. The point is that men can eliminate that choice.
By forcing women to marry, or raping them? Won’t go down well in a modern society.
You don't have to invoke violence to change behavior. Japan's alt-right party (with a membership of about 65k, so not large, but not nothing - they do have three representatives in the legislature) leader just suggested some fairly startling ideas, but buried in between what I can only describe as clickbait shock value statements are ideas like "restrict women's access to university education so they have fewer options."
Of course, he later retracted the statements and apologized, but even in his clarification says "I meant to say that we cannot transform the social structure unless we do something that goes that far" which doesn't sound exactly like "so I've totally changed my mind that such measures will be necessary"
I'd love to shake it off as rank nonsense, Japan isn't America, but the fact remains that people around the world are having this discussion.
If there was an easy solution that wasn't heinous, people would be doing it. The truth is that having kids just isn't a good value proposition for us. It's a lot harder to actually improve that calculation on the side of 'make having kids more appealing', and a lot easier to 'make all other options less appealing'. I would like to say it could never happen, but I think that's a bit optimistic. Ultimately, we will adapt one way or another.
Yeah, I'm not sure why you would say that.
Should EAs consider adding a "conversion multiplier" in their utility estimates for kidney donations?
Just here to nitpick that using Crown Heights as your example of a modern self-ghettoizing Orthodox Jewish community is not optimal compared to the available alternatives.
Orthodox Jews are around 30% of the population of Crown Heights, and have almost zero political control over local government. They cannot exercise any exclusionary power over "outsiders", and there isn't even a strong internal governance structure.
Additionally, the religious and cultural character of the specific Hasidic sect this population adheres to is by far the least exclusionary, insular, and defensive of any non-Modern Orthodox community in the world.
You'd have been much better off pointing to Williamsburg or Kiryas Joel, communities with 95% or higher populations in their geographic centers, who exercise strong local political control, who have very powerful internal governance, and successfully exclude outsiders from their neighborhoods and institutions.
Yup. The best self isolating ghettos are the ones outsiders don't see. It's like looking for bullet holes to decide where to put more armor. IYKYK.
If I was doing research on why and how Christianity or Islam spread so fast, I'd look at it also like a spread of a memetic pathogen. Both seem to have evolved, compared to Greeko-Roman religions at least, a very significant amount of tricks suited to infecting new hosts and keeping the old ones in. Tools suited for suppression of host's memetic immune system, commands to proselyte and spread the infection, tools to keep competitors out of a victim's mind if the parasite already infected the host and so on. Both seem to be really well-evolved in this way.
There were a lot of Exotic Eastern Religions jostling for space in the Roman empire of the time; the cult of Isis was very popular, and there was rather a backlash by the staunch Make The Republic Great Again types against these imports.
https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/myst/hd_myst.htm
MIthraism was the great rival cult to Christianity, if you like, and looked like it was the one to be the winner (very popular with the army up to the Emperor) and yet eventually it died out.
https://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=mithras_and_christianity
Arian Christianity was the successor then, and eventually it too was replaced by orthodox Christianity.
That's the point! There were other cults out there in the market advertising and competing by "who has better orgies" and such. However, Christianity had some specific adaptations. For example, might be not so attractive to dive into, but once you've got some faith going - cannot go back. Because your old gods are forbidden and if you even pay a minute obeisance to them, you go to hell. 100$ to get in, your immortal soul to get out sort of policy. The whole Pascal wager thing, sort of. And Christianity has plenty of tricks like that. The "faith when it's absurd" thing for another example - a compulsion to overcome the mind's immunity system that has the tendency to dispose of clearly dislogical memes. So overall - maybe not as infectious as other cults, but much harder to dislodge, sort of like AIDS and flu.
I haven't read the book so I won't comment on it, but recent scholarship revised the percentage of Christians in the empire at the moment of Constantine's conversion drastically downwards, from what used to be thought of as 10% to more like 1-2%. Of course, one doesn't have to accept this revision, and it makes the question of why would Constantine convert even more puzzling, but if it is true than the story is really not about exponential growth but of rather slow growth across three centuries, and then explosive growth once the emperor converts and elites, and soon after the wider population, see that it's advantageous to be Christian if you want to get ahead / enjoy patronage.
"Stark finds this plausible, because it’s the same growth rate as the Mormons, 1880 - 1980 (if you look at the Mormons’ entire history since 1830, they actually grew a little faster than the early Christians!)"
If Stark is using Mormon stats to determine his growth rate, keep in mind that the Mormon church assumes that any baptized Mormon remains a Mormon, unless and until the war receives a formal letter of regisnation, and that if the chruch doesn't receive notice of the death of a member, that member is assumed to live to the age of 112 or some equally absurd figure.
In other words, a person converts to Mormonism, shows up once to temple, then drops off the face of the earth and never darkens the doors of a Mormon stake again (but doesn't bother to send a resignation letter), that person is assumed to remain a Mormon until the age of 112, unless they hear otherwise.
Figures don't lie, but MBAs can figure.
It all evens itself out, because we have no idea how committed any Christian was to their religion in 500 AD.
I said nothing about commitment.
AFAICT, we don't have a church organization in 500 AD that was using statitstical games to inflate membership rolls.
I don't know exactly when it started, but Throughout history, Christian governments would default to just listing every baby born in their jurisdiction as a member of the Catholic Church. Lutheran governments followed suit, and there are probably other examples I could use..I can't think of a more perfect example of a statistical game used to inflate membership. Nominal members should count as members when comparing growth rates of various churches throughout history.
At one time, in certain places, everyone was by definition a member of the Catholic Church. The church didn't claim its members lived to be 112, nor did they maintain especially detailed membership rolls as proof of their success.
I think we're just talking past each other. I am not denying that the LDS church is using dirty tactics to inflate its membership roles. I'm just questioning how relevant this is to the broader discussion here.
If you are going to be so rigorous as to throw out LDS membership statistics, then by that same level of rigor, we need to throw out historians' estimates of Catholic growth rates in the early centuries of the church, at which point the whole discussion is moot.
No, because historians' estimates of Christian (not yet Catholic) growth rates in the first few centuries after Christ are not based on church membership records. We have no such thing. They're based on things like the number of people the churches we find archaeologically can hold, the number of tombstones with Christian markings, and the number of clergy that the bishop of Rome said that Rome has: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rbzmll/what_were_the_religious_demographics_of_the_roman/?rdt=58869
Historians’ estimates of the Christian population in those days of yore are entirely airy fairy and speculative. I'm not blaming historians for making those estimates, because I suppose they are better than nothing. But I am saying that their standards for “how many Christians were there in 400 AD” are just as questionable as the standards used by the LDS church in 2024.
So if you are going to be so rigorous as to discount LDS self-reported statistics, you should discount historians’ estimates based on that same level of rigor. It doesn't make sense to accept one while rejecting the other.
The point is to make the two comparable. If the LDS stats ludicrously overcount membership, while church sizes and the number of clergy reflect the number of active church-goers, the two aren't comparable.
I think there are so many confounding factors that the two aren't comparable. In fact, I don't think church membership in 2024 is in any way comparable with being a churchgoer in 400 AD. The cultural milieu is just two different.
We don't really know what the population of the Roman Empire as a whole was. There are educated guesses based on the archaeological record but they may be off by a non-trivial factor.
If those who in fact died or deconverted are kept on the "current member" count for decades, wouldn't that tend to make the percentage growth rate lower, all else equal? Ghosts and apostates presumably aren't proselytizing, so they'd bring the new-recruits-per-current-member average down.
<mildSnark>
>If those who in fact died or deconverted are kept on the "current member" count for decades,
But, can they still vote for Mayor Daley? :-)
</mildSnark>
I didn't think we were talking about recruits per current member so much as total growth.
If you're talking about total growth in percentage terms over a given span of time, though, that's relative to nominal total membership at the start.
You definitely want to be careful about counting growth in total number for this reason. But are there numbers of “converts” per year? Presumably the standards for counting someone as a “convert” don’t change much over the century, so you could look at this number over time to get an estimate of the growth rate. (Even if zero “converts” stay converted, the number of them gives a measure of how many people there are doing the “converting”.)
It's the same for Catholics in fact this is true of almost all religions, that lapsed are often still counted.
Mormons have half the bleed rate of Protestants who have half the bleed rate of Catholics. They're also steadily converting so even though, like all religions, active members are lower than members of record it's still doing much better than trinitarian Christianity.
FWIW, sex-selective infanticide in the ancient world didn't just involve girls.
Excavation of any ancient brothel will entail finding the bodies of a lot of dead boy babies.
"Paganism was framed as a business relationship with the gods. You performed the rites and sacrifices, they gave you supernatural aid. You didn’t have to like them any more than you liked your supply chain for any other commodity. They certainly didn’t like you! At its absolute most touchy-feely, paganism might posit a “special relationship” between a god and a city, like Athena and Athens. But even this maxxed out at the sort of relationship between a shopkeeper and a favorite recurring customer who he always remembered to greet by name."
Not only that, but the gods obviously liked some people more than others. That why they made Favoritus smart, athletic and handsome, and they made someone else, kind of a dork.
"Also, talk about Jesus is cheap, but I still don’t understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving, in a way that so few modern Christians (even the ones who really believe in Jesus) are. I’m not making the boring liberal complaint that Christians are hypocritical and evil, although of course many are. I’m making the equally-boring-but-hopefully-less-inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy. I’m not complaining or blaming Christians for this - almost nobody is that person! I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost."
What happened what that Christianity became the norm.
St Maximilian Kolbe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
"Maximilian Kolbe OFMConv (born Raymund Kolbe; Polish: Maksymilian Maria Kolbe; 8 January 1894 – 14 August 1941) was a Polish Catholic priest and Conventual Franciscan friar who volunteered to die in place of a man named Franciszek Gajowniczek in the German death camp of Auschwitz, located in German-occupied Poland during World War II."
Not everybody can rise to the level of heroic virtue, and then above it. There's a Flannery O'Connor quote "She could never be a saint but she thought she could be a martyr if they killed her quick":
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/she-could-never-be-a-saint-but-she-thought-she-could-be-a-martyr-if-they-killed-her-quick/
"She would have to be a saint because that was the occupation that included everything you could know; and yet she knew she would never be a saint. She did not steal or murder but she was a born liar and slothful and she sassed her mother and was deliberately ugly to almost everybody. She was eaten up also with the sin of Pride, the worst one. She made fun of the Baptist preacher who came to the school at commencement to give the devotional. She would pull down her mouth and hold her forehead as if she were in agony and groan, “Fawther, we thank Thee,” exactly the way he did and she had been told many times not to do it. She could never be a saint, but she thought she could be a martyr if they killed her quick."
Nicely put.
Very few people face the choice of becoming martyrs today. Who knows how most Christians would respond? The Power and the Glory by Graham Greene is excellent on this; an alcoholic priest who in comfortable circumstances would be a disappointing character, and something of a scandal. But he is faced with a series of choices which ultimately make him choose to die for his faith, which others find winsome.
Not just Christians either. Take Yeats' Easter 1916 - it's the banality and normality of the political martyrs which makes them so attractive.
Okay, this is a post I will gladly get my teeth into. Some reactions on first reading:
(1) "The Apostles and other early Christians, leaving Palestine to minister to the wider world, would have made use of existing Jewish networks and connections. They would have found themselves in the middle of the spiritually-disaffected, half-assimilated pseudo-Reform Jewish communities of the Roman world, plus their half-assimilated-the-other direction Greek hangers-on. They would have preached that Judaism was basically true, but that you can drop the restrictive Law of Moses and avoid getting circumcised. They would have sliced through the cultural angst of these in-between communities, saying that Jews could join together with Gentiles in a big friendly tent under the leadership of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
Yeeeeahhh.... well, outsiders didn't see any difference between the Jews and the early Christians, and considered the Christians an offshoot of, or a sect of, Judaism. Primarily because the early efforts of conversion were concentrated on the Jewish community - this was the big split between St Paul and the rest of the Church, as he was the one preaching to Gentiles and converting them, hence the need for a council at Jerusalem and the matter being settled by a vision recounted by St Peter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_vision_of_a_sheet_with_animals
They went out and preached in the synagogues and routinely got beaten up and handed over to the law, and the orthodox (small "o") Jews bitterly complained to the civil authorities about the upstart Christians, while the civil authorities couldn't see much difference between them. Depending on how much credence one gives to the Acts of the Apostles, it is recounted there. That's what made St Paul famous - *he* was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Acts 21:17-26
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2021&version=NIV
(2) "Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine."
I weep that my long quotes from Lambeth Conferences over the thorny issue of the acceptance of birth control have gone unfruitful here! 😁 There were arguments about quickening (when was the foetus felt to move in the womb?) and this was taken as a distinction between it being alive/ensouled and only potentially such; there were debates about when was abortion murder or not, and local customs differed, but deliberately procuring an abortion was always considered immoral and sinful.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/roman-catholic-church-quickening
Even the pagan Romans were not completely okay with abortion, though they practiced it; see Ovid's rebuke to his mistress (though that is as much about fears that she will die from undergoing an abortion as it is the abortion itself) in Amores, Book 2, poem 13; the following poem, 14, is much more condemnatory:
https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/AmoresBkII.php#anchor_Toc520535846
(3) "Meanwhile, Christian woman had relatively high status, sometimes rising to the position of deacon within a church. "
Well - kind of. This is another debate, in line with the liberal line about "Christians thought abortion was just fine in the early church!" you mention. There's been much ink spilled about "were women deacons (a church office later one of minor orders and leading to the priesthood) or deaconesses (specific female-only office for dealing with other women in the church)?" The pro-women's ordination feminist set claim "of course women were deacons and equal to male officials", the traditional interpretation is "no". This is not to say that women didn't have influence and important roles, but it wasn't the wonderland of egalitarianism portrayed by the feminists either.
Roman marriage was indeed very possessive, which is why more liberal forms developed and why eventually Augustus had to try and get the marriage and birth rates up among the upper classes. There was a very strict, ritual form and then looser forms, including one that more or less is "common law wife" where the husband had no authority over the woman (notionally she still belonged to her father's household and he had authority over her).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome
(4) "Maybe all of this was weird in 1996. But since then, we’ve seen plenty of suicide bombers willing to die for their faith."
Heh, yeah. In fact, since martyrdom was seen as a straight ticket to Heaven, there had to be something of a crackdown on people trying their best to get themselves martyred - the early version of "suicide by cop".
Veneration of the martyrs was often a sore point with heresies (generally they were agin' it) and we see this continuing up to the Reformation and the animus to the cult of saints.
The 90s and indeed modern liberal scholarship did/does love to find psychological explanations for "why did these people do this?" Hence St Paul was probably epileptic and the conversion on the road to Damascus was him imagining he heard Jesus speaking to him during a fit; the martyrs were masochists, etc.
(5) "The chapter about women doesn’t seem to be true, at least according to Salzman’s research. "
Depends. At least one charge against the Christians was that they were causing degeneracy of public morals, as in not letting women who had been raped commit suicide, which was their duty in order to wipe away the stain on their family's honour. Instead, those damn Christians encouraged those bitches to walk around alive after surviving rape, the hussies! I think women might have been drawn to a sect which said "it's not your fault and you are not guilty" after that:
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120101.htm
City of God, Book 1, Chapters 16-20
(5) "Meanwhile, the Christians had the opposite problem: too many women, not enough men. Pope Callixtus (218 - 223) briefly tried approving the practice of concubinage in the hopes of matching several women to one good Christian husband, but dropped the idea after outcry from his flock."
Now *that* one made me prick up my ears! My immediate reaction was "That can't be right" (although! there are debates about polygamy even now, as in "what about when a man converts to Catholicism but has more than one wife, what happens the other wives?")
Looking it up, it seems to be (if I can trust the old Catholic Encyclopaedia) that Callixtus recognised concubinage as a form of marriage (something akin to the situation of "what if a polygamist converts, what about his wives?" problem):
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04207a.htm
"The meaning of the term in Roman law, and consequently in early ecclesiastical records and writings, was much the same; a concubine was a quasi-wife, recognized by law if there was no legal wife. She was usually of a lower social grade than her husband, and her children, though not considered the equals of those of the legal wife (uxor) were nevertheless termed natural (naturales) to distinguish them from spurious offsprings (spurii). For this legitimate concubinage the Roman law did not require the intention of the two parties to remain together until death as man and wife; the Lex Julia and the Papia Poppæa allowing both temporary and permanent concubinage. The former was always condemned as immoral by the Church, who excluded from the ranks of her catechumens all who adopted this mode of living, unless they abandoned their illicit temporal, or converted it into lawful permanent, wedlock. Permanent concubinage, though it lacked the ordinary legal forms and was not recognized by the civil law as a legal marriage, had in it no element of immorality. It was a real marriage, including the intention and consent of both parties to form a lifelong union. This the Church allowed from the beginning, while Pope Callistus I broke through the barrier of state law, and raised to the dignity of Christian marriage permanent unions between slave and free, and even those between slave and slave (contubernium).
The Council of Toledo, held in 400, in its seventeenth canon legislates as follows for laymen (for ecclesiastical regulations on this head with regard to clerics see CELIBACY): after pronouncing sentence of excommunication against any who in addition to a wife keep a concubine, it says: "But if a man has no wife, but a concubine instead of a wife, let him not be refused communion; only let him be content to be united with one woman, whether wife or concubine" (Can. "Is qui", dist. xxxiv; Mansi, III, col. 1001). The refractory are to be excommunicated until such time as they shall obey and do penance."
I was a fundamentalist christian growing up and I would say that reaching out and talking to your friends, both in attempting to convert and in attempting to be nice, were both extremely valued. There’s another aspect which wasn’t entirely covered by this review, namely that it’s really fun to get together with a hundred people and sing songs together then get told a story about someone overcoming a conflict through the infinite power and love of god. It’s a great narrative! I think that, along with easy friendships, feeling good through cheap local charity whose effects you immediately see, results in a strong bond with everyone around you and makes deconversion very hard. I’d like to think I deconverted once I realized that many stories were fake, but this was also after I was no longer going to church several times a week and had heathen friends. If there’s a lesson here, it’s that to accomplish your goals, you need to join a cult and make sure other people stay in the cult because they will by default make the same decisions as their friends and whoever is hot near them
I think that understanding the relationship between Jews and the earliest Christians must take into account the singular fact that Jesus's brother, James the Just, was a visible, prominent, and highly respected figure in Jerusalem for at least a quarter century before Ananus the high priest decided to have him put to death.
Indeed. Most people are more convinced by stories than arguments.
"But the issue here is not capital punishment, not even very cruel forms of capital punishment. The issue is spectacle-- or the throngs in the stadia, watching people torn and devoured by beasts or killed in armed combat was the ultimate spectator sport, worthy of a boy's birthday treat. It is difficult to comprehend the emotional life of such people."
But this is obviously pish - public executions continued until very recently in Christian nations, and by all accounts such events were not solemn. Furthermore there is the issue of violence in the media...
Often at the hands of the Church itself, if you go back far enough. But I believe there was a cultural departure in some areas for some period of time.
Well sure, but those people were heretics and deserved it. Honestly, they should have been grateful; their godless, vacant lives were ended so they could face the judgement of a loving God. What more could you ask for?
It remains the case that it was the Christians who condemned and eventually outlawed gladiatorial "games" and feeding groups of criminals to wild animals to be torn apart. Most public executions in the Christian West are hangings or beheadings, with the truly cruel stuff reserved for traitors.
Part of the reason why they outlawed gladiatorial games, along with crucifixion, is that their association with anti-Christian persecutions. That said, it is true that what we'd broadly call "human rights" improved in the Roman Empire after Christianization.
Here's an article about the Ecloga law code from 726 (so many centuries after Christianization): https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ecloga
"In civil law the rights of women and children were enhanced at the expense of those of the father, whose power was sharply curtailed. In criminal law the application of capital punishment was restricted to cases involving treason, desertion from the military, and certain types of homicide, heresy, and slander. The code eliminated the death penalty for many crimes previously considered capital offenses, often substituting mutilation. Equal punishment was prescribed for individuals of all social classes. In an attempt to eliminate bribery and favouritism, the code provided salaries for officials in judicial service and forbade the acceptance of gifts."
"I’m making the equally-boring-but-hopefully-less-inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy. I’m not complaining or blaming Christians for this - almost nobody is that person! I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost."
I don't find this hard to understand at all. Compare to a surge in patriotism in the immediate aftermath of an attack or the start of war, like after Sept 11 or early in the war in Ukraine.
The harder question to answer is how they sustained that for 400 years. I'm not sure but being a persecuted minority as opposed to a member of some political party roughly evenly split with others in the country probably helps.
This is my favorite Astral Codex Ten post since Janus Simulators (1), which has the most precise mechanistic description of Buddhist awakening my Friston-pilled contemplative network has ever seen.
I believe the distinctive mode of attending that Christian psycho-technology, both symbols and praxis, (can and presumably did commonly) transmit are sufficient to answer the following thusly:
Q: How come the martyrs were so chill about being torn to bits, burned alive, etc?
A: They were awakened in a distinctly Christian mode, so little to no suffering in spite of the pain, and ample conviction to get through it.
Q: How come early Christians were able to be so anomalously virtuous?
A: The distinctly Christian mode of awakening is heart centered, which maximizes affective empathy, ie, it would have been painful for them to not be hyper-altruistic.
Q. How come (most) Christians (in the industrialized world) today are *not* especially embracing the same kind of heroic responsibility and virtue?
A: Most Christian traditions have NO IDEA about the power of their own insanely rapidly effective psychotechnology, like some Buddhist lineages forgot to meditate for generations and mistook memorizing lists of attributes for awakening. And most Christian traditions that can still access this are very low IQ and anti-science, so most neuropilled psychotechnology nerd Karl Friston appreciating consciousness hackers like many SSC readers have never seen or heard of any of this.
Q. How could Christians maintain this level of virtue (for some time) without the deference to and reverence for law that Judaism maintains to this day?
A. Because unlike head-centric awakenings, Christian awakenings maximize affective empathy, and they are sensitive to hurting others, ie, if you step our of line "God" cuts the juice, ie, holy spirit / pleasurable tingles / chi / prana / whatever you want to call it.
In the Janus Simulators post, Scott presciently and correctly points out that the <me> character running on our wetware is a small fraction of our mind, and lets us realize we are the entirety of the sensorially grounded pseudo-dream we call waking life:
"But when people become enlightened or whatever, they often say they’ve “become one with the Universe”. This has always seemed dubious; even the obscure species of aphid we haven’t catalogued yet? Even the galaxies outside our lightcone?
I propose a friendly amendment: they’re noticing that most of what they are - the vast majority of their brain - is a giant predictive model of the universe."
One notable thing about #notallbuddhist awakenings is they're nominally 'centerless', ie, they deny a 0,0,0 origin point of the mental holodeck rendered by our brains. We see this especially in the pragmatic dharma movement, which is socially adjacent to rationality (think MCTB, TMI, MAPLE, OAK, Shinzen's UMS, etc). The spaciousness is impervious to wrongdoing, as evidenced by the scandal rate. John Yates aka Culadasa spoke about this on Taft's podcast at the end of his life re his own sex scandal, he was so awakened (from the head) he didn't grok that his harem of prostitutes was a problem. As my own Buddhist teacher said, awakening (in his tradition, ie, UMS) is dangerous behaviorally because it makes you 'realize' that conventional morality is fake in an (their term) 'ultimate' sense, just holograms, sankhara. Watch the beefs on dharma overground or x the everything app, or get deep in the scene, you'll notice social coordination between awakened beings even in the same lineage is...not confidence inspiring.
So what is different in the Christian analog of awakening? What is the trinity? How does it work?
In Vajrayana terms, God the Father is the ground of being, the ultimate subject of experience / the subject of Chalmers 'hard problem'.
Jesus Christ is the yidam that models and transmits the mode of attention that expands conscious access to our minds (the whole simulator), and
The holy spirit are tingles in the body (chi/prana/orgone energy/whatever...I call them tingles because its clear).
Coming back to Janus Simulators (I promise this is not IFS-related bear with me), we have more than one 'self' somatically mapped to the body, we have a number of somatically mapped sub-agents, which unfortunately have been termed chakras (I'm so sorry for using the C word).
Each of these sub-agents (which I presume are primarily computed in the brain, but are definitely mapped to the felt body) can independently attend to different parts of the 'whole simulator'. This divided attention leads to akrasia, in many awakened buddhists as well as many rationalists like me with ADHD. We can model each somatically mapped subagent like an independent prompt + instance of the LLM simulator, tasked with different concerns. Horny tingles near the crotch, hungry tingles and anger mapped to the stomach, love (in a technical sense) mapped to the heart center.
Given high 'sensory conduction' (Shinzen's term) through the body for chi/the holy spirit/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, these distinctly prompted subagents (to continue with the ML metaphor) share output logits, ie, blend their outputs. Failing sensory conductivity, these subagents fight for control of the body, and behavior can become erratic. Consider Aella's famous werewolf tweet for one common manifestation of this.
The simulator is a vector space for attention, and attention from the heart is overpowered for inviting other parts of mind into a coherent self-frame. So, unlike #not-all-but-many-buddhisms, what this does is actually expand the self to include others (bring them into the same markov blanket in Fristonian active inference terms), instead of nominally (but not actually) eliminating the self.
The crucifixion conveys this mode of attention very precisely: in crucifixion, the blood from Jesus heart is being pumped to every wound on his body. Seriously, just try imaginally crucifying yourself, and you'll notice that if you imagine yourself bleeding out up, down, and out...its really powerful. And WAY faster than meditation, its not even close. There are other hints: the crown of thorns is at *precisely* the right location and angle to enter the 'headless mode', i.e., to unlock one's crown chakra.
Is this just my pet theory? No! Valentin Tomberg wrote the book on esoteric Christian practice (Meditations on the Tarot, which sat by the Bible on Pope JPII's desk) and while he doesn't spell out *how* to do this (he was sworn to secrecy in the many orders into which he was initiated), he does diagram the heart-out chakra operation and very plainly says this is the mystical purpose of Christianity, ie, the reason 'they will know we are christians by our love'. Also, compare to Alex Gray's psychedelic art. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
Further, if you go to a Pastoral Care Ministries conference, a Pentacostal service, or just hang around both enlightened Buddhists and Christians who are blissed the f out on Jesus, you'll notice postural differences, affect differences, emotional diffences (ie, Christian mystics retain full emotional range, many enlightened Buddhists do not). A similar spacious quality, but coming from the whole body not just the head. It's subtle until it isn't.
Occasionally Buddhists and Buddhist-adjacent folks discover this mode of attention. River on twitter calls it 'bottom up' attention, Joe Hudson calls it "The Art of Accomplishment, and Judith Blackstone (our most eloquent advocate for maintaining a center of mind) calls it Realization Process. But Christianity has another trick up its sleeve that makes it the neurotechnology available IMO for being a networked wet computer on legs: original sin, repentance, and forgiveness. This is just the LessWrong ethos, but for normativity, it sets a socially reinforced prior for noticing and correcting error via linearizing negative feedback. This explicit belief bosters and is bolstered by the behaviorally contingent bliss available in Christian awakenings: the feedback is incredibly quick, its like a body cam for the soul (as a twitter friend put it).
1. https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/janus-simulators
2. https://whatiscalledthinking.substack.com/p/spiritual-but-not-religious
This is why I come to ACX. This comment is either sheer abject nonsense or at the intellectual vanguard and for the life of me I can't tell which.
Do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law!
No. And you can tell that cannot be true because Thelemites cannot coordinate for shit. Individual practitioners can learn some interesting shit and evoke some non-ordinary experience, Crowley was a genius, and also his tradition does not scale at all. It was an elaborate way to spite his parents, mission accomplished, but operating in a tradition that bears such awful fruit (and did during his lifetime) is deeply unwise.
It was a (rather stupid) joke. Your comment was so long and elaborate and the response so short and (potentially) dismissive I thought putting another random religion in would be funny.
@samr71’s reply was *very* apt in my
view, and I appreciated it.
It’s one or the other (close to the vanguard or abject nonsense), and hard to tell which without a lot of background and experience that is pretty rare in this scene (and adjacent scenes frankly), and my thread isn’t well cited, doesn’t have adequately explicit means for independent verification.
It would be folly to take my word for it, ya know?
Agreed.
I guess I just don't have the religious impulse, so a lot of this stuff leaves me cold. Why would I *want* enlightenment? Why would I *want* the divine to notice me or to experience it? Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
Well, we just met, so I can't speak to your priorities, ya know?
But personally, I've never been happy owning a computer and not having sudo / root access / admin privileges.
So, given that I am a computer (which somehow also has subjective experience), its all the more important to me to have root on the box that is me.
And there aren't many things I've found meaningful that do not become more meaningful or tractable with more access to mind.
I would say "My mind," but this is subtly misleading. Mammalian minds (at least) are mutually penetrating: you're modeling me modeling you modeling me, etc. My predictive model of you is lower resolution than, but of the same data type, as my model of me: it's a bundle of priors all the way down so far as we know.
Since we are social being, having more access to mind implies having more access to every desirable thing. Awakened people are an extreme case of this; they become extremely persuasive. Of course, if they are not modeling others as part of the same meta-organism, framing others within the same markov blanket, well that is pretty scary: there is a ton of room for misuse of that power.
Whereas, when our markov blankets are mutually enveloping, skillful coordination and intimacy at depths few know become possible.
If you name your favorite thing, I can ground this in a personally relevant example. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, money, whatever. Pick a deadly sin if you want: each of those points to an opportunity for greater and deeper fulfillment through Christ correctly considered. ie, Christianity is what happens when you bite the bullet on mistake theory, "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do."
Thank-you. I’m working to get this written up long form with all the citations and practices written up for independent verification. Any questions would be very helpful.
Genuinely looking forward to it. I guess what I'm confused about is what exactly is this "neurotechnology" is, metaphysically. Just hacks for the wetware computer (that is otherwise uninteresting) we call the brain? Or "something more that's going on"?
If these are plain hacks...why do they work so well? If these states are real (in the sense of - "no there's something else going on at a Pentecostal service other than people just getting really jazzed") why are they so hard to access you require neurotech? - or are you "not supposed" to access them? (Not supposed to as in - "you're not *supposed* to vape DMT in high concentrations during daily life, it just doesn't happen" and not "doing drugs is BAD!" (though they may be))
I do my best to meet people where they are. I, like many SSC readers, love tech, metacognition, noticing confusion, and figuring stuff out. Ergo I frame Christianity with the love of an engineer who loves tech, enjoys thinking about thinking, noticed I was confused about Christianity's upsides in spite of its common doctrinal...issues, and wants to figure out how Christ works on the brain. Most Christians are no help here, obviously (though wonderful exceptions exist, John Cobb perhaps first among them), every denomination is hung up with legacy debt, and imo we are only now getting the neuroscience and theory to give a cogent explanation of why (some) Christianities works better than anything else for solving intrapersonal and interpersonal human alignment. And just in time, too, hopefully, because we also have AIs to align, ya know?
Metaphysically, the canvas for experience, the projection screen for phenomenal awareness, the ground of being, however you want to frame it...minimally appears to exist. Like, either we have experience, or we are somehow confused about this in some highly non-obvious way. So, ontologically, I am just as confused about this as anyone. There's IIT-style computational theories about this, microtubule-style quantum theories about this, and illusionist theories about this that mostly (when you dig into the details) weasel out of the weirdness with motte and baileys, eg, confusing correlates of experiences for a mechanistic understanding of experience (as a guest poster did here on ACX recently --nice guy, good article, but totally missed the hard problem and substituted in easy problems). But ontologically speaking, physically speaking, what the holy fuck is the ground of experience? Idk. I make an imo principled "God of the gaps" allowance here in witting confusion. Coming to this realization was what made me realize I needed to take religion seriously: psychology is our best secular attempt to make sense of and manage issues pertaining to valence and such, and therapy just keeps important more and more tech from 'spiritual' disciplines. Might as well update all the way like a good Rationalist, ya know? But update all the way on practices and traditions that work, not the cope people utter in word games about the practice. We're probably mostly familiar with Kevin Simler and Robin Hanson's Elephant in the Brain: these should be taken seriously but their adherents should not often be taken literally because explanations non-autists give are >95% cope (nerdy explanations still probably >80% cope).
"Plain hacks"
I mean, I think they're too elegant and too effective as systems for this diminutive language I use like this to be fair. It's more like, how does one skillfully use their mind? I think these are profound de facto discoveries made through memetic selection, and we'll be able to proliferate the benefits much better when we figure out how they work.
My short version is: I can model me as just 'the George character'. Or I can model myself (not in theory but in felt practice) more accurately as (at least) the entirety of 'my' mind, but since mammalian minds are interpenetrating, the proper scope of my markov blanket is bigger than myself. And the ceiling on intimacy, bliss, social coordination, and efficacy that is possible when groups of people start enveloping one-another and the group in their markov blankets is just insanely high.
I hadn't remembered that first post. It linked to a review from 2019 of Eric Drexler's "Reframing Superintelligence", stating that it was 5 years more recent than Nick Bostom's "Superintelligence". And it has now been 5 years since Drexler's book. Modern LLMs are capable of doing more things than answering questions/completing texts, but they still mostly seem to act more like tools than agents.
I don’t understand the relevance of your reply to Buddhist or Christian awakenings, sorry, can you help me out here? LLMs in the former post and in my reply here were being used as a metaphor.
I wasn't commenting on Christianity there, just reflecting on that first post in hindsight.
Wow! thanks for that. I think I might have grokked ~1/2 of it. (I've hadn't heard of Karl Friston)
If it’s within your joy to lend them, questions and comments on what is not clear would help me *a lot* as I get this written up long-form.
> Karl Friston
He’s a gem. But not a great writer. I *highly* recommend skipping his papers and going straight to the little book on his work, Active Inference, which (as Karl Friston writes with great humility in the foreword) he contributed the ideas but nearly none of the prose, because he is constitutionally incapable of being concise and clear.
Incredibly fascinating reply here. Wow. Glad I read it all.
I definitely think that heart-centered awakening is the core advantage of Christianity from a sort of "energetic" perspective. When it comes to Christian practice versus Buddhist or others, the heart is always seen as the most important for the Christian. God is love, and all that.
What I'm curious about is how exactly the early Christians cultivated this. Did Christ just have so much heart he showed them how to do it, and it mimetically spread? Did they have practices? Idk I'm just super curious about how we get back to this state.
Yeah, people are more converted by stories and appeal to emotions than by logical arguments.
Sometimes, but what is more effective is direct experience with divinity. What you don’t know is that one of Thomas’s friends just popped his crown chakra in thirty seconds with slightly modernized crucifixion tech I demo’d on a twitter space.
But logical argument is dope, too. I <3 the red team (as Christ modeled), come at me bro, we’ll probably learn something.
I’m incredibly curious about this too, cf the question in the intro to my imaginal crucifixion thread. What was the OG tech? Idk. And perhaps since the gnostics died out it’s good the og tech has been lost, maybe it doesn’t scale.
But what I notice is that different corners of Christendom seem to keep stumbling on ways to do this.
Like, Pentecostals would never put up a crucifix or wear a Sacred Heart medallion, but watch one of their services get revved up and you see that same attentional mode come out.
At the extreme end I don’t have a better descriptor for an SSC audience than Jesus Jhana, though that isn’t quite precise in part because the state persists (unlike the jhanas).
The process is explicit in Eastern Orthodox spirituality. This is a good book-length explanation of how it works:
https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Silence-Search-Orthodox-Spirituality/dp/0385500920
I don't feel worthy of giving a summary, sorry. It's both simpler and more complex than you would think.
Based, that’s going on my book list, thank-you, Mark.
Also you seem like a good candidate for our group chat, which is ecumenical (I’m a Quaker) but Orthodox heavy.
NP.
And if you send me an invite, I'd love to join
hmu on x and thomas or I will add you; @georgejrjrjr.
Great post.
Around Christ's time in the Levant, there periodically appeared dudes who'd claim to be the Messiah then get killed shortly thereafter (mostly by Romans?). The uptick seems to have been fueled by Jewish society's desire for independence from Roman rule. Based on my limited understanding of what a Messiah means in Judaism, this makes sense: it's the "savior and liberator" of the Jews who would be king and rule over them. In the flesh. So you get the types who were vying for a powerful position ahead of a revolt in a period of revolutionary forment. Maybe someone with a deeper understanding can fill in the spiritual particulars of what this Messiah would have meant, because it seems entirely practical.
Jesus' timing makes sense. He deviates from the other would-be Messiahs in saying "I already saved the Jews, and rule the Kingdom of God, but follow these instructions for best results", mic drop (by dying). In the context of the time, this almost seems inevitable to have happened. For the reasons you mentioned about martyrdom, perhaps he'd have willingly died, but the parts that come after the resurrection are very yada-yada'd - he flies off on a silver cloud. Which sounds an awful lot like the apostles were saying "yes he resurrected, but he's already gone, you can't see him sorry" to followers. Between options a) he died on the cross and apostles ran with the rest of the story, b) someone else died, he blows apostles' minds, then goes into hiding, I think 'a' is more likely.
I wonder if what helped inoculate certain cultures against Christianity was the strength and ubiquity of their religion (rendering Christianity more redundant as needs are filled), distance from sphere of influence, or both. After all it reached South Korea and would have spread through Japan considerably more had they not brutally shut that down. Buddhism despite being old seems to have been capable of providing meaning in darker times, or more than Western paganism. Japan's Shintoism would have been vulnerable, in my intuition. They had Buddhism too of course, but it's sort of a hybrid thing? idk enough about it.
"Stark treats God as a solution to game theory problems; everyone will do better if they cooperate, everyone wants to defect, so tell everyone that God demands cooperation and will punish defectors."
That's Joe Henrich's point, too, as I recall. Monotheism's all-seeing deities promote treating strangers justly and fairly, which helps make urban life less violent/dangerous and facilitates commerce, which raises living standards. If urban Roman life was as bad you're portraying it for the average person, maybe anything that seemed to offer a minor improvement would find adherents pretty quick?
One thing I'm curious about that I don't see this review mention: as I've always heard it, Christianity was also the religion of Roman slaves, largely because it promised people a happy afterlife to make up for their crappy, ya know...regular life. I would think that would be something of an impediment to its spread; that the Romans would view it as low status and be none too quick to convert. On the other hand, maybe that's how it spread among women? First the slaves got converted by some missionary or other, and the Romans weren't paying attention because who really cares what the slaves are jabbering about as long as the fields get tilled and planted on time? But Roman women were friendlier with slaves because their own position wasn't all that much higher in society, and thus a slave who proselytized tended to find receptive ears among these Roman gals?
The "Diaspora Jews" thing is new to me, but makes a lot of sense.
>Or maybe it was persecution effects? Either persecution bled off the least committed X% of Christians, leaving only the hard-core believers behind - or something about proving themselves to a hostile world brought out the best in them?
I do think there's a lot to this. I'm a believing Christian who has spent time in churches in different areas of the US, and there's something about facing a more hostile culture that I think strengthens the church. There was something in my church in LA that is missing from the ones I've attended in Oklahoma. I'm not sure exactly what, but the fact that everyone in California was definitely there because they wanted to be and wider society wouldn't look at us askance for not going was on the whole a good thing, IMO.
To be clear, I am not equating the level of "persecution" of Christians in LA with those in the Roman Empire in any way, and would argue very strongly against any claim that any American Christians are being persecuted in a generalized way. But there was something about working in a slightly more hostile environment than I was used to and am in now that I think was strengthening. And extrapolating from that makes me suspect this is right.
Maybe some Mormons who have spent time in more vs less Mormon areas can speak to this, too.
Mormon, er- member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here. I grew up in a moderately hostile to religion area (Oregon), moved to Utah, and now I live in SF. I think you're right on the money. There is even a small intellectual tradition within our beliefs that makes a lot of hay out of the "scattering" and "gathering" of Israel, aka God is purposefully sowing believers into difficult climes so they can have their faith tried in a way it wouldn't be in a highly homogenous and faithful culture like (faithful) Jerusalem or Utah Valley, which seem to inevitably slip toward farce despite the truth we've been given.
There’s also pretty common LDS feeling among the “outer parts” that the Utah-and-surrounding-heavily-LDS-environs are a little culturally inbred in some way, they’re too “Utah Mormon” as opposed to a normal Mormon, they’re more appearance-driven and performative because of the population. You definitely get a different type of believer in CA than in UT.
Yeah. I grew up in that "Bubble" (ok, the adjacent SE-Idaho bubble) but spent most of my adult life outside of it (Florida and Oregon) and it's been a thing.
The idea is that it's both much easier and more "valuable" to be a going-through-the-motions (but in a very visible way) member of the church in Utah than elsewhere. You get no social brownie points in Florida for being a visible Mormon, so being open about it requires at least some sacrifice and risk. Whereas in (stereotypical) Utah society, you suffer more for *not* being out and proud (in the same way all the others are). Social exclusion, etc. But you can also just skate by--when there are 200 active people willing to do stuff, your flakey behavior can go unnoticed, while in a congregation where every adult member has a significant calling just to staff the congregation it's a lot harder to slide by.
You don't need to be actually persecuted for that to work though, only the perception of persecution. That's probably why grievance politics are so powerful.
To be clear, this wasn't as a result of feeling persecuted in LA, either. I suspect (but obviously can't prove) that claims of persecution would be no more common at that church (and probably rarer) than at my current church in Oklahoma. I think it's more a matter of being countercultural, which is easier for a church in LA than in OKC.
> Sometimes religions just grow really fast. Why? Probably they’re good religions somehow.
This makes sense, and you primarily point to Mormonism as a contemporary example of a fast-growing “good” religion, but Islam is the fastest growing major religion today. How would you reconcile this theory with Islam? Does the “friendlier you are the better you do” theory of religion also apply here?
I think religions tend to succeed when they can plausibly offer a lot (in the way of community standing and sustenance) to those who have very little. To me, part of Mormonism’s practical appeal is how their meetinghouses often have the facilities and hospitality of a top notch community center. I think this is also true of many mosques. This and both faith’s stiff resistance to resignation are the nearest contemporary similarities I can find between the two.
Do you have any numbers on the growth rate of Islam vs Mormonism?
Just like with nature, there's more than one effective way to fill a niche.
Jesus is Lord.
Probably don't remember this too accurately but basically there was an experiment where they had a large playlist of unknown music. And they had a group of people who would listen to the music and share it among themselves. They could choose which of the songs from the playlist to listen to. And some songs got more popular. So you'd think those were the best songs.
But when they ran the experiment again with new people, other songs got popular.
So some songs will get popular, but it's at random which ones. Not completely random, of course. Some songs are just terrible.
So maybe it's like that with religion. The bigger a religion is, the faster it grows it seems. So one would expect a few religions to get super big. But maybe it's kind of random which ones. If we could turn back time a couple of thousand years, create a tiny bit of randomness, step on a butterfly, and run history again, maybe Christianity wouldn't get big. Maybe it would be a religion that in our history we never heard of.
"Salzman has one more concern, which is that women had so few rights in ancient Roman society that it’s hard to see how they could have converted at all. When unmarried, they were under the care of their father, who would hardly have let them go out visiting churches full of strange men. When married, they were under the care of their husband, who likewise. A typical Roman man wouldn’t have cared about his wife’s religious opinions, which is maybe why so many of our stories about intermarriages and conversions come from later periods like the Anglo-Saxons."
Hence the importance and popularity of the hagiographies and martyrologies. Moderns see feast days of consecrated virgins and roll their eyes with the idea of some milk-and-water missy with folded hands and a simper on her lips.
Look at the example of the female martyrs in the Roman Canon of the Mass:
"Felicity: Another half of a pair of martyrs—and the first woman to the appear in the Canon after the Blessed Virgin Mary—Felicity was a pregnant slave-girl who was thrown to the lions and then dispatched by the sword in 202 along with…
Perpetua: A noble woman of high rank in Carthage who would not go back on her faith, she shows, with St. Felicity, that any person, whether of high or low estate, male or female, can win the martyr’s crown.
Agatha: A Sicilian noble, Agatha, according to the official martyrology, “after beatings and imprisonment, racking, the twisting of her limbs, the cutting off of her breasts, and torture by being rolled upon shards and burning coals, at last died while in prayer to God.” According to tradition, it took two attempts to kill her (like St. Cecilia below, and St. Sebastian whose name does not appear) since St. Peter himself healed her in a vision. The year was 254.
Lucy: You’ve seen her famous statue: she with the chalice with two eyeballs in it. Like saint Agatha, she was of Sicilian nobility. Her name meaning “light” despite the fact that she’d been blinded, pulled by oxen, covered in pitch and resin and boiling oil, and finally had her throat slit under the emperor Diocletian’s persecution. Another famous female martyr of the early Church.
Agnes: Of all the women martyrs, perhaps the most famous, and certainly the youngest (about 12 years of age), her name means “lamb,” though she had the heart and faith of a lion. Along with Lawrence, one of the most famous early Roman saints and, in the words of the great Doctor of the Church St. Jerome, “Agnes is praised in the literature and speech of all peoples, especially in the Churches, she who overcame both her age and the tyrant, and consecrated by her martyrdom to chastity.” John Keats’s famous poem “The Eve of Saint Agnes” shows just how right St. Jerome was.
Cecilia: Patron saint of musicians, and usually shown with at a keyboard, her passion is so well-known that it would be unjust to list a truncated version of it here. Though the date of her martyrdom is unknown (as is much of the history surrounding her), it is thought to have occurred in Rome in the early part of the fourth century.
Anastasia: Her commemoration falls on Christmas Day, which shows the regard in which her cult was held. Along with her husband Publius she was tortured and eventually killed with 270 other men and women. Like St. Cecilia, it’s difficult to determine fact from legend in Anastasia’s life and death, but she seems to have been martyred about 304."
Felicity and Perpetua are an interesting couple. "Perpetua and Felicity (Latin: Perpetua et Felicitas; c. 182 – c. 203) were Christian martyrs of the third century. Vibia Perpetua was a recently married, well-educated noblewoman, said to have been 22 years old at the time of her death, and mother of an infant son she was nursing. Felicity, a slave woman imprisoned with her and pregnant at the time, was martyred with her. They were put to death along with others at Carthage in the Roman province of Africa."
The accounts of their martyrdom emphasise how Perpetua's father and husband appealed to her, with appeals to the family (her infant son). Perpetua withstood them all. Take Salzman as accurate, and see how startling this behaviour was! She is defying her father's parental authority, her husband's authority over her, and the authority of society which sets her place and how she is supposed to behave. In their shared faith, Felicity is equal to her mistress Perpetua, and they meet the same fate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetua_and_Felicity
"Perpetua's account opens with conflict between her and her father, who wishes her to recant her belief. Perpetua refuses, and is soon baptized before being moved to prison. Perpetua was imprisoned in Carthage in the days leading up to her martyrdom. She described these days and what she endured in her diary.
Perpetua described the physical and emotional torments that she suffered in the prison leading up to her martyrdom. Perpetua suffered physically due to the heat, rough prison guards, and the cessation of regular breastfeeding. Perpetua also described how the prison conditions improved after she was able to bribe the guards so that she and the other martyrs were moved to another part of the prison, with her infant. Her physical torment was also eased after she was able to breastfeed her child. Perpetua described bodily ailments in detail and the most common in her narrative was the cycle of pain and relief she would feel in her breasts.
At the encouragement of her brother, Perpetua asks for and receives a vision, in which she climbs a dangerous ladder to which various weapons are attached. At the foot of a ladder is a serpent, which is faced first by Saturus and later by Perpetua. The serpent does not harm her, and she ascends to a garden. At the conclusion of her dream, Perpetua realizes that the martyrs will suffer.
The day before her martyrdom, Perpetua envisions herself defeating a savage Egyptian and interprets this to mean that she would have to do battle not merely with wild beasts, but with the Devil as well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_of_Saints_Perpetua_and_Felicity
"On the day of the games, the martyrs are led into the amphitheatre (xviii). At the demand of the crowd they were first scourged before a line of gladiators; then a boar, a bear, and a leopard were set on the men, and a wild cow on the women (xix). Wounded by the wild animals, they gave each other the kiss of peace and were then put to the sword (xix). The text describes Perpetua's death as follows; "But Perpetua, that she might have some taste of pain, was pierced between the bones and shrieked out; and when the swordsman's hand wandered still (for he was a novice), herself set it upon her own neck. Perchance so great a woman could not else have been slain (being feared of the unclean spirit) had she not herself so willed it" (xix). The text ends as the editor extols the acts of the martyrs."
If "women wouldn't be allowed out of the house to mix with strange men, they were under the hand of fathers and husbands and male authority in society", then what strange appeal did Christianity have to make them stand up and defy everything they knew like this?
"In the Passion, Christian faith motivates the martyrs to reject family loyalties and acknowledge a higher authority. In the text, Perpetua's relationship with her father is the most prominently featured of all her familial ties, and she directly interacts with him four times (iii, v, vi, and ix). Perpetua herself may have deemed this relationship to be her most important, given what is known about its importance within Roman society. Fathers expected that their daughters would care for them, honor them, and enhance their family reputation through marriage. In becoming a martyr, Perpetua failed to conform to society's expectations. Perpetua and Felicity also defer their roles as mothers to remain loyal to Christ, leaving behind young children at the time of their death.
Although the narrator does describe Perpetua as "honorably married", no husband appears in the text. Possible explanations include that her husband was attempting to distance himself from the proceedings as a non-Christian, that he was away on business, or that her mention of him was edited out; because Perpetua was called the bride of Christ, omission of her husband may have been intended to reduce any sexual implications (xviii). Regardless, the absence of a husband in the text leads Perpetua to assume new family loyalties and a new identity in relation to Christ.
Perpetua belonged to an aristocratic family with Roman citizenship, as indicated by her name Vibia Perpetua. Perpetua's execution alongside slaves demonstrated Christianity's ability to transcend social distinctions, in contrast to the inequality that pervaded Roman religion and society. As Perpetua and Felicity were equal in martyrdom despite differences in class, they made the dramatic statement that Christianity transcended social structure."
A few thoughts:
1) Abrahamic religions seem distinctly better at "meaningfulness" than pagan religions, right? Saying that there is an all-knowing and all-loving God who will reward you if you obey certain laws and perform certain rituals (Judaism and Islam have daily prayers) must make life feel much more purposeful than an assortment of gods whose moral value is neutral and who don't feel invested in every second of your life. And Mormonism distinctly seems much better at the "meaningfulness" thing than mainstream 19th- or 20th-century American Christianity (Family Home Evening being basically a take on something like the Sabbath, and having a prophet actually revealing secrets to you is probably more compelling than studying Bible controversies). If the religion you had before (most forms of paganism) does not make strong claims about the truth value of other religions, then Christianity must seem equally plausible (and once a high-status society like Rome had adopted it, maybe more plausible), and if people who adopt Christianity are much more motivated to spread it than paganism, then it'll spread.
2) All of this interacts interestingly with Julian Jaynes, On the Decline of the Bicameral Mind. If you have household gods protecting your specific family, and you can go and talk to idols who represent them, then this must also impart life with a very large degree of meaning. I don't think the strong version of his theory is true, but I think it is true that over the course of ancient history idol worship seemed to get obviously less compelling. (I feel like I have a style of thinking very similar to what Julian Jaynes' describes of Bronze Age people -- in considering an action I'll speak about it to imaginary versions of my friends and family, and in childhood fictional characters, and then often make a decision based on what I think they would think. If my culture said that I was communicating with gods, I would probably believe it -- but this would depend on those deities actually having relevant information at least some of the time, which must've gotten harder the more interconnected the world got.) I do think that "the mind is an imaginary space containing thoughts and emotions, and perhaps hallucinations" is an unintuitive idea, but it's also a clearly correct one, and once it spread idol worship became more difficult to sustain, and with it the "meaningfulness" of paganism declined.
3) I think most forms of paganism which were able to have large amounts of meaning -- and most forms of early religion in general -- were very strongly tied to some particular place (Fustel de Coulanges' Ancient City essentially posits that every ancient city had some form of its own religion that the inhabitants thoroughly believed in, and things like Rome's sacred pomerium and unique calendars, with rituals on particular days, must contribute to this). I think these things tend to break down once they ossify -- the pomerium becomes stupid if Rome is much larger than the boundaries it posits, and if some huge fraction of the people living in a city migrated there after it burned down, they won't identify with the rituals. Ancestor worship works only if *your* ancestors are being worshipped. Although Judaism remains an incredibly geographically particular religion by modern standards, one of its innovations in the ancient world must have been its ability to form a "Diaspora" at all, and keep existing outside of Judea; once Roman magistrates started to seem like "spoiled brats playing a dumb game, while emperors have the real power", it must've been harder to believe in a religion which depends on civic magistrates being objects of respect. (Extremely speculatively, India might've avoided Islamization because the caste system is very good at generating meaning; it already tells you what your role in society is in a way that is very generationally persistent. Non-Indian forms of paganism were not able to sustain this for millennia.)
4) Founding effects matter. In the early days, there were particular Mormon missionaries who were able to go to random places like Denmark and Lancashire and convert thousands of people and convince them to go move to the middle of nowhere in North America. There are lots of ideas for religions with great "meaningfulness", but getting the ball rolling is hard. Jesus and Joseph Smith must both have had followers that were amazingly charismatic and amazingly compelling *specifically to the kindest people in their society* (or even the kindest people in other societies). This must take a sequence of very specific personality types at the right places and a sequence of lucky breaks. (Assuming that the historiography of early Islam is broadly correct, Muhammad also promulgated a much kinder and more meaningful religion than pre-Muslim Arab polytheism, though he was able to lean on personally great generalship and converting many people who turned out to be astounding military leaders, which is an interesting alternative version to the Christian/Mormon story).
Instead of asking what caused Christianity to spread so fast, it may be worth asking what caused it not to in certain areas.
Probably the same reason we don't see the same animals everywhere: those areas already had religions/cultures that evolved separately but were similarly effective.
Also, another thought: what role did increasing disease burden over time play? Disease burden grew a great deal in the ancient world (https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/let-no-new-thing-arise/); this must be related to thing where Ancient Greek cities seemed prosperous, and would export people to go found new cities, but by the late Roman period cities were disease-infested hellholes that everyone wanted to escape from. Under those conditions, religions which emphasized sanitation must have had a competitive advantage -- and Judaism and its offshoots comes from the part of the Middle East which basically hit maximum pre-industrial population size first. (Also, "having someone bring you water if you're bedridden" must get harder the more bedridden people there are, and the more people are aware that sick people might be contagious. Bubonic plague and smallpox showing up must've made that second fact much scarier -- I'm not too frightened to speak to someone with the common cold, although I have friends who are, but those illnesses would make me think twice.)
This might also explain the growth of Mormonism seeming to slow after antibiotics started being commonly used in the 20th century!
Penicillin became commonly used after WWII, when the growth rate of Mormonism was increasing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_history_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints#/media/File:LDS_Church_Growth_Rate_1900-2022.png
Plague is only communicable directly between humans when it takes it's hyper-deadly pneumonic form-- then it spreads like colds do. There is some indication that in the great plague pandemics human fleas were able to also transmit plague between persons though I don't think that's ever been observed in modern times.
Not all of the Christian conversions happened through the same mechanism. Karl Karling (Charlemagne) waged an aggressive war of conquest against the pagan Saxons living in a large chunk of modern Germany in the late 700s. He famously burned and destroyed a pagan holy site (an Irminsul tree) and fought several rebellions, replacing the local nobles with Frankish Christians from his own realm. Many Scandinavian pagans converted as a condition required by Christian kings of settling in England or Northern France in the 800s. Slavic pagans were the target of a crusade from Germanic Christians as late as the 1300s, during the Teutonic Order's Baltic Crusade. The Lithuanians, at that time encompassing an area from the Baltic to the Black Sea, including most of modern Belarus and Ukraine, converted to stop Christians from invading them. Although the Teutons kept invading them anyway, so arguably the religious claims were only a pretext.
That's just off the top of my head. While this review is an interesting look at how Christianity spread through Rome, I think it's a mistake to extrapolate those conditions to the rest of the Christian world.
I read this book. Great review. But let’s not forget that at the time of Constantine’s conversion Christianity was only 10% of the population which was where Judaism, including the God fearers, were at the start of Christianity.
Paganism seems to lose out to monotheism in many places. Islam isn't Christianity, but has plenty of success in converting pagans.
As you eloquently describe, life sucked back then, and people died at high rates for seemingly random and uncontrollable reasons, or because the emperor needed soldiers to go fight the barbarians. Maybe dying for your beliefs, even painfully, seems like less of a sacrifice under such circumstances. Christian martyrdom still stood out, but maybe it "only" stood out the same extent that particularly altruistic people do today (e.g. you get a glowing news article about you if you jump in front of a car to save a child).
Also, I think that those density comparisons are misleading. Don't forget that Manhattan contains a lot of uninhabited space (parks, roads) as well as lots of office buildings, museums, stores, and neighborhoods with much shorter buildings (I assume ancient Rome had many fewer of these things, or they took up less space). If you think about "Manhattan" as "Times Square" or "around Grand Central" you'll have a very misleading idea of what an average density of 300 per acre means, and if you visit Manhattan during the day, the population you experience is roughly double the official figures, which are based on people living there. It's still wild how many people would have had to live in one room, but I think it's less "feels impossible" and more "really bad, similar to how most life was prior to the 20th century."
"weajoos"?
Its a joke based on "weaboos", who are Americans or Europeans who are obsessed with Japanese culture.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/weeaboo/
Ah I figured it was some obscure reference I didn't get. Thanks.
As someone who is easily impressed by plausible arguments, I really appreciate the pushback effort the author made.
My takeaway is that context matters so that in a place where mortality is high, the rule of law is weak, comparative advantages are stronger advantages. To me that is enough to explain why Christianism and Mormonism did in fact have such success and why Scientology does not.
The more you need your ingroup to survive/strive, the more a religion is likely to spread (provided it has a good "growth mentality" if I may say)
Error:
"Doesn’t all this hinge on one passage from Paul which, technically, named more men than women, plus one inventory of tunics which was so female-biased that it couldn’t possibly have been representative of even a very woman-heavy church? "
Earlier in the article you said Paul named 15 men and 18 women. Was it the opposite?
"Stark collects various forms of evidence that early Christians were predominantly women. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans greets thirty-three prominent Christians by name, of whom 15 were men and 18 women"
Romans 16 mentions 33 Christians by name, so I'm guessing that's the source. I make 8 of them women (Phoebe, Priscilla, Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa, Persis, Julia), and 25 men (Aquila, Epenetus, Andronicus, Ampliatus, Urbanus, Stachys, Apelles, Aristobulus, Herodion, Narcissus, Rufus, Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, Philologus, Nereus, Olympas, Timothy, Lucius, Jason, Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius). Personally I think we ought to count Rufus's mother and Nereus's sister as two more women though.
It is curious to me that the non-Christian accounts of the rise of Christianity that I've come across (Scott/Stark and Tom Holland) credit early Christianity with in some sense inventing goodness, but the Christians I've read dismiss this idea out of hand. C.S. Lewis devotes the appendix of The Abolition of Man to demonstrating that ancient societies shared a large core of what counts as good ('the Tao'). Chesterton in Orthodoxy says "Those underrate Christianity who say that it discovered mercy; any one might discover mercy. In fact every one did. But to discover a plan for being merciful and also severe—THAT was to anticipate a strange need of human nature."
I'm not really sure what this means or what to do with it.
Christians may take the societal effects of Christianity ("inventing goodness") as less important than the supernatural effects of Christianity. That is to say, both Lewis and Chesterton were more concerned with how each of us can become good, through the grace of God and the blood of Jesus, then whether goodness was a Christian invention. They take for granted that morality is universal, so Christianity is not an invention of goodness but a revelation and a return.
From a secular point of view, it's convergent evolution--a successful religion will have certain points in common with others, because that's what survives. He doesn't list the cult of Mithras in there.
He doesn't, but the cult of Mithras has survived so little that all we've got is one text which might document one of their liturgies, and none of their ethics. I was surprised to learn this given how many times I've been told that Mithraism was like Christianity. Were the people claiming this just guessing?
It can be hard for modern people to really understand the difference between paganism and Christianity, since all the pagans are long gone. C. S. Lewis wrote that
"a Pagan, as history shows, is a man eminently convertible to Christianity. He is essentially the pre-Christian, or sub-Christian, religious man. The post-Christian man of our day differs from him as much as a divorcee differs from a virgin."
Christianity was simply better in all aspects than paganism, in a way that's not comparable to Christianity's relationship to modern agnosticism or atheism. All our pagans are Christian Pagans, all our atheists are Christian Atheists.
it's hard to know the details of pre-christian ideology popular among the people, we only have writing from weird elites, but the christians definitely didnt invent ideological approval or encouragement of love? plato talks about it in the symposium! Here's the SEP summary: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-friendship/ I mean, it's plato so its weird and multivocal about it. but they definitely thought love was important! they were just crazy misogynistic so they didn't want to do it with women.
he also talks about philia, friendship. they definitely thought non-romantic type love was important. from what i can find, they MAY not have had a notion of universal love, at least "agape" as a term for it seems to be basically invented by the christians. but universal love is kind of a weird idea, the idea of loving someone without respect to their traits is kind of strange (which is not to say its weird to care about their wellbeing)
> Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine.
Sorry for bringing up the meme again for the 11th time (I counted!), but I'm honestly surprised this was a meme in the first place. Who originated this, and when?
I don’t have any resources on hand, but there’s a populace that Christianity was appealing to that I didn’t see mentioned in this review: Roman slaves.
Stark briefly presented a theory that Christianity spread more among the upper classes than slaves. He had some historical evidence, but also based it on most modern cults spreading more among the upper than lower classes. I didn't go into depth on this in the review because it didn't answer the question I found most important (how did Christianity spread)
The kindest person I've ever known closely was a Christian. I think it is possible that on average, Christians have more exceptionally kind people than non-Christians. It's funny, because at the same time I knew many Effective Altruists, but none of them struct me as kind. Instead, they struck me as taken in with an abstract movement.
Anyone remember chain emails? You'd get them all the time in the late 90s, begging you to forward them to ten friends. Sometimes they offered a reward for doing it (Bill Gates is going to send $100 to everyone who does it), sometimes they offered punishment for not doing it (grievous bad luck) and sometimes they just wanted you to do it for fun (sorry Claire Swire). Eventually we all figured out this was a stupid idea and stopped doing it, but the first chain emails set loose on the virgin mindscape of the First of Eternal September were incredibly successful. The whole idea seems naive these days but at the time it was a big deal.
What about the idea that Christianity was hyper successful just by being the first religion to explicitly have "please spread this religion to all your friends" attached to it? Older religions such as Judaism, Hinduism and the Greek/Roman religion don't seem to actually care whether or not you believe them, and certainly don't instruct you to bother to convert anyone else, but Christianity explicitly says "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you" which was perhaps as successful on the first century mind as "forward this to ten friends" was on the mind of the late 90s internet.
This was wonderful, thank you. Christianity has gotten a bad name in much of the USA. And this is going to sound strange, but I want to recommend a documentary from 2000. "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" You think it's the worst, and yet when you look behind the curtain, there is love and redemption.
Is there any discussion of explicit propogation norms?
Christianity was unique, I believe, at the time in explicitly demanding adherents proselytize. You quoted some of the scripture here, but it's worth pointing out that the term we use for a sect now, "evangelical", literally means, "spreader of good news" (that good news, or, again, "gospel"--not many people know what that word means--obviously being Christianity.)
Jews don't do this, and I don't get the vibe pagans do. Romans want their rituals respected but they don't care about spreading Zeusism. I know everyone eyerolls at the term, but Christianity really is a meme in the sense of self propagating idea.
Were they the only ones, uh, trying, to grow?
The only other major religion that asked adherents to proselytize at the time was Buddhism. So yeah, no competition on the conversion front.
How kind and sweet (and scientific).
I also wonder about places where it didn't work, by which I mean mostly Japan. I have a guess, but it's based on fiction, specifically The Silence, by a Japanese Christian filmmaker. He portrayed the missionaries as trying to spare their parishioners suffering rather than calling them to horrific self-sacrifice. But it was people being willing to die horribly that helped Christianity win in Rome. I suspect the same would have worked in Japan.
Well that's not really a mystery, Japan is an isolationist island nation, and the few Christians that found themselves there anyways were violently oppressed. And the Japanese were already more than willing to die painfully, they didn't need Christianity for that.
Japan had the most thorough and successful persecution of Christians in history. It was a decree from Shogun and was carried out rigorously across the country. Then the country spent a good 200 years intentionally isolating itself from outside influence, particularly the influence of westerners. It was a very successful program: at the start of it there was an estimated 200,000 Christians in Japan, and after about 50 years there were no open Christians in the country. Part of the system was that everyone needed to be registered with a local Buddhist temple, and the temple would confirm that each person registered was not a Christian. The primary method of doing this, besides asking, was to require that they step on an image of Jesus or Mary. Those who refused to step on it were sent to Nagasaki (which served as a kind of Christian quarantine city) and would be given multiple chances to renounce Christianity. If they refused they would be tortured until they renounced. If they still refused they were executed.
Yet even this persecution, which is historically the most successful that I am aware of, was not complete. When Christianity was made legal 250 years later more than 10,000 Christians came out of hiding. They had been practicing in secret, passing it down to their Children and never telling anyone. They ended up with some pretty weird rituals and beliefs! Most of them went back to the Catholic Church.
Your assertion that "Pope Callixtus (218 - 223) briefly tried approving the practice of concubinage in the hopes of matching several women to one good Christian husband, but dropped the idea after outcry from his flock," is conceptually confused. The form of concubinage at issue was monogamous unions betwixt persons of differing social standing. Think highborn Roman women and men of inferior social standing. Stark description of this state of affairs on page 78 does not refer to polygamy at all, although he does speak of the relaxation of the concubinage rule as a means of circumventing restrictions on aristocratic women finding willing christian spouses.
Perhaps you wrongly inferred that the shortage of eligible high born Roman men compared to highborn Roman women led to an endorsement of polygamy. I don't see any scholarly evidence supporting that view.
Thanks, I've removed that sentence.
>if we think of this as each existing Christian having to convert 0.4 new people, on average, per decade,
Or have .4 more surviving children per decade than the population average? I'm not sure how that math works
I tried to search the term "immigration" and got no hits. Apologies if this is already being discussed.
Scott is confused about how the fertility differential between Xians and Romans could matter when Roman cities were population sinks, and roman population was not in a decline from 30 ad through 200 ad (i am assuming this period, as the population goes into serious decline after 200 ad). He estimates Roman rural populations were reproducing with an TFR around 4. This is likely incorrect. Roman urban populations were being sustained via immigration, not native replacement.
There was massive urban immigration seen in the genetic archeology. See this article from Nemets (not me!) https://nemets.substack.com/p/peoples-of-rome/comment/17928855 In the comments, he estimates 12 million or so immigrants to Italy from just 192 BC to 235 AD.
As an aside, the rural Italian roman countryside was depopulated in the Imperial area. It was comprised of large corporate farms. These were worked by slaves, not by citizens. I do not think there was a deep reserve of rural folk reproducing in Italy in the Imperial period.
"From 1,000 to 6,000,000 in 260 years implies a 40% growth rate per decade. Stark finds this plausible, because it’s the same growth rate as the Mormons, 1880 - 1980 (if you look at the Mormons’ entire history since 1830, they actually grew a little faster than the early Christians!)"
Comparing early Christianity to Mormonism does not explain how early Christianity grew unless you understand how Mormonism grew. This is easier, since it's more recent and much better documented. But you do have to investigate this history.
I am only sort of a historian. I am not trained in it, but have had a job which partially involved historical analysis. I have been to the Mormon History Associate conference once, but did not present. Properly answering this question would involve analysis of a bunch of journals by missionaries & converts - which I will not do here.
The social graph theory seems to be partially true, but definitely not complete. Many of the earliest members of the Church were the family or close friends of Joseph Smith. And it's not that surprising for families to be converted together. But this does not explain most of the growth of the Church in the 1800s, and the demographics of conversion were quite different in different places.
The earliest members of the Church (1830/31) were mostly from old Puritan families - but they were from socially and religiously marginalized members of the community. [1] This is even apparent in my own family. I am not Puritan enough to be literally descended from Jonathan Edwards, [2] but I am descended from his crazy grandmother (her family had a few problems with axe-murdering). [3] I think that this first year or two, and first ~500 members, is the time when the social graph theory works best.
Another big group of early saints converted with Sidney Rigdon in 1831. He had been a traveling Campbellite minister. When he converted, a significant fraction of his congregations converted too.
Traveling preachers were much more common during the Second Great Awakening, and I think that this forms the basis of early missionary work. Hotels were less common, and hospitality norms different, so preachers could often find someone's house to stay at for a few days. They would tell people about a public sermon or revival, often held outdoors. Many people would come to listen to it. I don't know the conversion rate for these public sermons, but my guess is maybe a few percent. The hosts for the missionaries likely had a higher conversion rate. For the most part, it feels as though individuals or families would convert and then would try to move to Kirtland (Ohio) & various towns in Missouri, or later Nauvoo (Illinois), or later Utah. Gathering disrupts the existing social networks, and so would decrease the effectiveness of conversion through the social graph.
In the southern United States, the demographics of conversion were very different. There was a much larger threat of violence against missionaries. Conversions were much rarer than in the northern US or Canada. However, if someone did convert, they would often convert as an entire clan - multiple extended families living in the same area. A different branch of my family joined the Church way: the Heninger-Groseclose clan in the mountains of Virginia. During the 1800s, the Church in the southern US consisted of a constellation of maybe 10s of clans scattered across the South. All but one of them (the Schuler clan in the Florida panhandle [4]) eventually gathered to Utah or Arizona. Social networks did seem to be much more important for conversion here.
Then there's the international missions. It is hard to overemphasize how important the British mission, in particular, was to the growth of the Church. The first missionaries were sent to England in 1837. By 1850, a majority of Mormons lived in Britain (~31k vs ~21k in the US). [5] These British saints would immigrate en masse to Utah. Of the 70k Mormon pioneers who walked to Utah before the railroad, almost half of them were British immigrants. [6] The railroad (1869) further increased the fraction of immigrants from Europe. [7] Mormon missionaries did not have close social ties across the Atlantic. They were unable to rely on social networks to get their first converts. I'm also skeptical that subsequent growth was largely carried on social networks of the earlier converts. Mass emigration to Utah is not a good way to build a stable community in Britain. The stories you hear about these immigrants often feature the sorrow of leaving their family and friends behind, in order to go join the Kingdom of God. I think that the growth of the Church in Britain is mostly due to the persuasiveness of preaching to large groups of people, a few percent of whom would convert, rather than spreading through a social network.
While the British mission was the most successful in terms of the number of converts, the most successful missions in terms of fraction of the population converted were in Polynesia. Maybe 10% of all Polynesians today are Mormon. [8] Tonga is almost as Mormon as Utah (although maybe with different rates of attending church). The missionaries really did not have social connections to the Polynesian islands when they arrived. Different island groups did not have social connections to each other for the Church to spread from Hawaii to the Maori in New Zealand. I am uncertain why missionaries were so much more successful in Polynesia than elsewhere. Specific things like the Maori prophesies [9] can't explain why the Church was successful in Samoa or Tonga. Mormons weren't the first Christian missionaries to any of the island groups, although maybe to individual islands. I don't think that this is a story of converting political leadership - the first member of the Tongan royal family to join the Church was in the 1980s. [10] While I do not know the reason for this success, I don't think that the social graph theory is a particularly good explanation.
The social graph theory is a highly incomplete theory to explain the growth of Mormonism in the 1800s. Most of the growth occurred overseas in places where the missionaries did not have social ties. Having most people move to Utah prevents deep social ties from being built in the mission field. Instead, my best theory is that many people were persuaded by public preaching by the early missionaries.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Origins-Converts-Colonial-Ancestors/dp/0252029100
[2] https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/03/12/puritan-spotting/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Tuttle#Murder
[4] https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/utah/ci_8732986
[5] https://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/south_yorkshire/article_2.shtml
[6] https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/b/BRITISH_IMMIGRANTS.shtml
[7] https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/trek/the-convert-immigrants?lang=eng
[8] https://www.thechurchnews.com/2021/12/16/23218317/which-countries-have-the-largest-percentages-of-their-populations-as-latter-day-saints/
[9] https://josephsmithfoundation.org/maori-prophecy-of-lds-missionaries-in-new-zealand/
[10] https://www.ldsliving.com/after-converting-to-mormonism-tongan-prince-given-noble-title-and-rights-despite-opposition-to-his-faith/s/87360
Part II on modern missionary efforts coming soon.
Thanks, really interesting!
That also explains why Utah and Mormons have so much “english” ancestry on the census, rather than the “German” and “American” that dominate in many other places.
Turning now to the modern missionary efforts. There certainly have been significant changes since 1996. [1] But I think that there is enough continuity to not worry about it here.
The Mormon missionary program does not operate using the social graph theory of conversion. Proselytizing missionaries are not called to where they are from. They typically do not know anyone in the mission where they are called, and oftentimes don't even know the language. They switch companions and move congregations every few months. The decisions about what mission to serve in, what congregation to serve in, and even who your companion is are all made by church leadership, rather than by the missionaries themselves. The result is extreme deracination, with missionaries from across the Church thoroughly mixed and put in close but temporary working relationships with each other. If I'm feeling particularly snarky, I'll sometimes say that the institutions of the mission treat missionaries as interchangeable parts (even if none of the individuals in the mission do).
This is ... not the sort of system which maximizes conversion through social graphs. When someone joins the Church, it is common for the missionary who first taught them to not even be present at their baptism, because they've moved to a different congregation. There's a sense that people should be converted to the Gospel, rather than to individual missionaries. Insofar as the social graph theory has applicability, it is through local members, not missionaries.
Maybe the Mormon missionary program does not understand the real reasons why people convert, and so is structured in a highly ineffective way. Maybe the "real purpose" of the missionary program is actually to convert the missionaries, rather than the people they teach - although the overwhelming majority of people involved (including the leadership) do not believe this to be the case. I think that the fact that the missionary program is structured this way is evidence against the social graph theory explanation for the growth of Mormonism.
"A lot of male cult members join because the cult has hot girls."
I believe the technical term is "flirt to convert". This has a negative connotation in my mind - the term suggests something distasteful about a relationship or interaction. That doesn't mean that it never happens. However, missionaries are strictly forbidden from dating. If sister missionaries feel as though someone is mostly interested in them rather than the Gospel, they will try to transfer the responsibility of teaching them to some male missionaries instead. For members who are not missionaries, dating across religious lines does exist, but is fairly uncommon. Marriage to someone outside of the Church is not performed in the temple, and so is "til death do you part" rather than "for time and all eternity". If your spouse later converts, you can then you can have your marriage sealed "for time and all eternity", but this is obviously depends on their choices. Many members highly value a temple marriage, and so preferentially date within the Church.
"Indeed, in spite of the Mormons' celebrated door-knocking campaign, their internal data shows that only one in a thousand door-knocks results in a conversion, but "when missionaries make their first contact with a person in the home of a Mormon friend or relative of that person, this results in conversion 50% of the time"."
I'm a bit skeptical of where he got this data, but the numbers seem about the right order of magnitude, or both might be too high. Everybody knows [2] that knocking doors (or "tracting") isn't very effective. What it is is scalable. Tracting has also become less common over time, compared to e.g. street contacting. During COVID, a lot of missionaries shifted to trying to contact people on social media, and some of that still exists. Tracting is something that missionaries do when they do not have more effective things on their schedule. All forms of contacting take lower precedence than teaching people who are interested.
I don't think that this is great evidence that social graphs are important. Making contact in the home of a Mormon friend or relative strongly selects for people who have some interest in the Church to begin with. I don't think that inviting Mormon missionaries to a group house dinner would likely result in half the people in the house converting. (But maybe I just need to have more faith.) The better comparison would be to constrain to only people who have already agreed to at least one meeting with the missionaries. Among these people, is having friends or family in the Church a strong predictor for baptism? I don't know.
There is also a different narrative that emphasizes multiple small positive experiences, often with different people, rather than deep relationships. The most prominent advocate for this view is Clayton M. Christensen, who plausibly has both the experience and data-mindedness to have investigated this question seriously. [3]
Another potentially relevant piece of information is that the Church is more likely to convert young adults and immigrants than people who are more established in their communities. This might be simply explained by openness. People whose lives are in flux are more likely to reconsider their core beliefs than people who are more settled down. But it is interesting that weaker social networks are associated with more conversion.
In the congregation in Berkeley I currently attend, I think that most of the people who have been baptized in the last few years (n=8?) did not have close friends or family in the Church at the time they converted. The biggest exception to this is the Cal Maritime bros (n=2), where the Church does seem to be spreading through a close social network. Even in this case, we don't see "interpersonal attachments to members overbalanced their attachments to nonmembers" - their 40 person class is now up to 4 Mormons. A particularly persuasive thing seems to be seeing someone close to you convert. If you notice that they have become a happier, kinder, or all around better person since they converted, that is pretty good evidence that something good is going on there.
I don't want to completely dismiss the social graph theory of conversion. This sort of thing certainly does happen sometimes. People who have close friends or family who are Mormon sometimes do convert, and maybe at a higher than baseline rate (although I don't have evidence for this). It is also the case that most people who convert have had positive interactions with members of the Church in the past, although this isn't that unusual in the general American public. But I don't think that most conversions are driven by close contacts within a social network.
[1] https://thechaostician.com/a-data-driven-recent-history-of-missionary-work/
[2] https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2019/07/02/everybody-knows/
[3] https://everydaymissionaries.org/
As a member of the Church in question and a former missionary and as someone who's been in callings relating to coordinating with the missionary force in a congregation, I completely agree with this.
As to the social graph theory, I served in the Baltics (speaking Russian, so I got to move). Every congregation had a pattern--a group of early members would join right at the start, usually nucleating around one charismatic, deeply-connected individual. At some point, that individual would go off the rails and cease activity, usually in some fairly public brouhaha. Sometimes they'd be caught in adultery or some other really public sin and refuse to repent, other times they just got offended at something someone said, other times they'd try to get a "higher position"[1] and (wisely) get denied the "promotion" (scare quotes very much intentional, see footnote). And almost all of that "cohort" that came in with them would *also* not be actively attending church anymore. There'd be exceptions, of course, but I've found that social graphs are more powerful in dragging people away from religion than converting them.
One of the church leaders said that for long-lasting conversion, every convert needs 3 things: (1) to be nourished with the Good Word (properly taught and reinforced in the doctrines of the gospel), (2) a responsibility (something to do to make them feel needed, even if it's small and relatively inconsequential), and (3) a friend (someone in the church that they can connect with). Often, that third part comes *during or after* the missionaries get involved (pre-baptism).
[1] The scare quotes are because we do NOT campaign for positions/callings in the church. And doing so is a really good way to NOT get called to that. None of the callings are granted by volunteering for them[2] or by getting a degree. Callings come from leaders who pray and seek revelation, as well as careful thought. And leadership callings are not "higher"--it's not a promotion. My dad, who served as a bishop (local congregation leader) said that what he really wanted to do after being released[3] was serve as the nursery leader. I personally think that people who seek positions in the church are nuts. They're fairly thankless but very high pressure jobs. I'm just in a support calling to the local leadership and spend from 8 am to 2 pm just about every Sunday in meetings or being there as a safeguard. I don't even have to do the heavy lifting. The bishop does crap-tons more.
[2] We are not a church of volunteers, we're a church of assignment. Some things get done by asking for volunteers (mainly service), but really they could be assigned. And most important things are done by assignment.
[3] Most callings are not for life, with a few exceptions. Bishops tend to serve 5-7 years; stake presidents (who coordinate and lead a group of 10-ish congregations in a local area) for 9-ish years. And only very rarely are people called as bishops or stake presidents twice. You usually go back to being a regular member of your ward afterward. Most other callings are even shorter than that. 2-4 years is common for most "leadership" callings.
What about proselytizing? Not sure of this, but didn't the Christians invent proselytizing? Those pagans certainly didn't proselytize, and neither did the Jews. If Christians were the first to try to get converts, maybe that's why they were the first to get converts.
Buddhism is also a proselytizing religion, but Christianity and it's offshoots (most notably Islam) put far more emphasis on it. And it shows in the numbers, as only 7% of the world is Buddhist while 31% is Christian and 25% is Muslim.
You suggest that modern cults are different because they spread on the internet among people interested in the ideas. But I suspect the ideas are doing only a little bit more work here. The online communities are doing a lot more work. In antiquity, it wasn’t possible to develop a parasocial relationship with a blogger or YouTuber or singer or Facebook friend, so spreading through social networks was inherently in-person. But modern cults spreading through websites are mostly generating social networks as well (even if they are thinly social, like usenet in the 1990s).
Romans had a long tradition of a very specific brand of religious tolerance: panteon merging. When new people were conquered, their goods were accepted as *also true*, and therefore no need to have a conflicts on religious grounds. This worked like a charm with pagan religions, but completely failed with Jews, who claimed that *only their God* is real, and refused to concede even a single point in favour of Jupiter. What's worse, Judaism is a national religion. There are chosen people with special relationship with God. Which may even include love - pretty virulent ideas! But membership in this club is gained mostly by legacy admissions. So neither Jews could be properly integrated, not Romans could realistically convert to Judaism in mass, even if they wanted to. A memetic stalemate.
Now, enter Christianity. In a sense, it's a universal Judaism and therefore a much more virulent strain of the memeplex. Anyone can become one of the chosen people, loved by God, and no need to even cut your penis! This strain is released on a population, which is quite open-minded about religion. Which already have demand for chosenness and divine love. Of course people converted en masse!
Mormonism is similar, though somewhat opposite. It's a brand of Christianity, catered specifically to the US. Two popular narratives of Christianity and American national identity are combined into one. No surprise it got quite virulent in US.
And yes we can likewise see the social justice ideology as Christianity without the supernatural.
The Romans did not always practice pantheon merging. They accepted Greek and Egyptian pantheons, but crushed the Carthaginian and Celtic pantheons. These gods required human sacrifice, which the Romans found barbaric. These were also two of Rome's bitterest enemies, while Greece and Egypt were subdued more easily, and with the help of local allies.
A few Celtic gods survived. There was a Romanized cult of Lug which lasted well into imperial times-- Lyons (Latin, Lugdinum) took its name from the God.
> many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy.
I wonder how much of this is the result of outsourcing charity to the secular government. I certainly pay the government considerably more than a tithe. (But I'm not a Christian.)
1) It's well known that most Jews were living in the diaspora at the time of the destruction of the second temple. Some were refugees from earlier wars in Judea, some had left because they were already largely assimilated, and some simply hadn't gone back to Israel when the second temple was built. I find it interesting that you didn't mention the major Jewish population center in Babylon, where the (primary) talmud was compiled.
2) While it is probably true that many Jews in the diaspora weren't practicing their religion, I think the gravestones are a far better indicator than the Septuagint. Jewish tradition teaches that the Septuagint was written by order of one of the Ptolemaic kings, against the wishes of the rabbis. The Septuagint wasn't written for the benefit of the Hellenized Jews, they mostly didn't want to read the book at all (although even then there may have been those who couldn't escape religion, and spent their days looking for proofs that the religion was wrong).
Additionally, the Jews haven't spoken Hebrew as a vernacular language since the destruction of the first temple. From at least the early days of the second temple, readings of the Torah were accompanied by immediate translation (a practice maintained by very few communities today). The Jews of Babylon spoke, and wrote the talmud, in Aramaic. Even the Jerusalem talmud, written in Israel after the Roman conquest, is written in aramaic. Miamonides wrote two of his three major works in Arabic. The Jews of Eastern Europe spoke Yiddish. But the gravestones do support your contention.
3) Basic nursing would be particularly helpful for diseases like cholera and dysentery where the proximate cause of death might actually be dehydration or malnutrition.
4) On your point about Christian morality, I think the first generation will almost always most embody the ideals of the founders. Everything decays. Information is lost. The things that are easiest to lose are the things that are hardest to pin down on paper and the hardest to enact. (I think that's partially the cause of the attrition rates of modern Orthodox Judaism. Modern orthodoxy can be seen as an attempt to spend accumulated isolationist capital. It fails because it can also be seen as a rejection of isolationism, which is untenable.)
It's useful to treat religions as blobs that stretch across chunks of history, and this approach does produce valuable insights, but you need to also remember that religions that survive do so because in every generation there were individuals that chose to follow that religion. It's easy for something to decay when it becomes a default. Christianity didn't adapt itself to more common nuerotypes. Some people couldn't be bothered to make the journey and change themselves, so they hollowed out the concepts of Christianity and lived by faint echoes of those teachings, calling it by the same name. The Passover night service contains a teaching that everyone must see themself as if they are personally leaving Egypt. Those who keep it fresh endure. Those who don't keep it fresh can still live by making it the only option (whether by isolation or dominance). If they fail to isolate or dominate, they assimilate.
(Nassim Taleb has a saying that an accountant might still be an original thinker. I think it might still be the case that some isolationist communities are vibrant. It's just hard to tell, as an outsider, if a community is isolating because they'd collapse if they didn't, or out of a deeply rooted sense that there's nothing worth doing outside.)
Hebrew was still a spoken language at the time of Jesus, though it was spoken mainly by some hicks (not Jesus).
I'm pretty sure the 'hicks' (by which I assume you mean 'rural villagers') in Israel spoke only aramaic at the time. Hebrew was maintained as a spoken language by the more traditional Jews, although not as a first language. (Although as was common until recently, the intelligentsia were usually multilingual, and both elite Hellenists as well as elite traditionalists were fluent in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and Aramaic.)
No, there were still Hebrew-speaking areas - uphill I think. I once read about some sort of rabbinic anecdote from the IIth century or so where the doctors of the law have to go ask the housekeeper how to say « broom » in Hebrew.
Interesting. I'd love to see that. It's kind of surprising, although that does track with the compilation of the mishna, which was written in Hebrew.
I just asked ChatGPT thrice - it hallucinated plenty, giving me completely wrong references, but also gave me enough clues (it was the maidservant of Yehuda ha Nasi, i.e. Yehuda the Boss Rabbi, second half of the 2nd century) that I could find a reference elsewhere and then get the right reference. Here it is: Jerusalem Talmud, Megillah 2:2. Also JT Shevi’it 9:1, but that has no broom.
It's hard to verify quickly what the mainstream opinion is on this issue, as there are people with credentials who take extreme positions ("of course every educated person in Judea at the time spoke fluent Hebrew, as did everybody at the market", "nobody spoke Hebrew as a first language", or things close to that). A naïve reading of the passages I just found supports the impression I had: language of scholars and the maid from the village.
Thanks for the reference.
'Maid from the village' seems like an unfair characterization, but it's an interesting story.
It does go to show how fluency in scholarly and biblical Hebrew doesn't mean fluency in vernacular Hebrew.
(Every American yeshiva student in Israel realizes this pretty quickly.)
I thought it was obvious than when I said "hick" or even "maid from the village" I was being ironic, as in, that's who some students of the law had to humble themselves in front of (and I hope it taught them something besides Hebrew).
That said, it also seems obvious that the maid's excellent Hebrew came from her being a native speaker, and not primarily from just being the maid in a head rabbi's household (otherwise the students could have just asked the rabbi), though perhaps that helped her keep her fluency.
The author's take on the appeal of Christian morality to the masses looks very similar to Nietzsche's, their implicit normative judgments aside.
> Is this all there is? I’m not sure. Also, talk about Jesus is cheap, but I still don’t understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving, in a way that so few modern Christians (even the ones who really believe in Jesus) are. I’m not making the boring liberal complaint that Christians are hypocritical and evil, although of course many are. I’m making the equally-boring-but-hopefully-less-inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy. I’m not complaining or blaming Christians for this - almost nobody is that person! I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost.
This is a really interesting thought. We can assume that the earliest Christians were not being Christian for conformity's sake (other than maybe on a really micro-level), while in predominately Christian societies, many people are just going to follow along for conformity. What does Christianity look like when it only attracts people who are willing to believe in it regardless of conformity?
A group to help cut out the conformity variable might be nuns/monks in cloistered monasteries, since they're (a) probably hardcore believers since they're sacrificing a normal life (b) self-selecting themselves out of normal social status.
>" Also, talk about Jesus is cheap, but I still don’t understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving, in a way that so few modern Christians (even the ones who really believe in Jesus) are."
I blame the fully atomised capitalist existence people live in.
I grew up in a semi-subsistence farming community in central America (people had cash and sometimes had jobs, but grew most of their own food) and you could absolutely rely on anyone you met doing whatever they needed to to help you out, and this was safe for them because they could rely on you helping them out in turn.
The church and the schoolhouse were where this sort of help would be centralised, but if eg. your roof fell in, you could sleep on the neighbors floor until everyone got together and put it back up with you. If someone had some fish or chicharon or whatever, they would share it around to people they could reach, and then you would make sure everybody got some manzana de agua when they were ready.
As you left the sticks and approached the metropol, which in this case was either the USA or places that were spiritually equivalent, everybody was still exactly as christian but had adopted the same 'if you see a homeless dude drowning in a puddle and this distrisses you, simply avert your eyes' attitude that prevails in most places.
"Paul’s Epistle to the Romans greets thirty-three prominent Christians by name, of whom 15 were men and 18 women"
This is incorrect. In Romans 16 Paul names Phoebe, Prisca, Mary, Junia, Typhaena, Tryphosa, Persis, Julia and Olympas (9 names) and also extends greetings to Rufus's mother and Nereus's sister, so he greets 11 women in total (assuming Junia was a woman). He also greets Aquila, Epaenetus, Andronicus, Ampliatus, Urbanus, Stachys, Apelles, Aristobulus, Herodion, Narcissus, Rufus, Asyncritus, Phelgon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, Philologus and Nereus, so he greets 18 men. Romans 16 goes on to name 8 other men: Timothy, Lucius, Jason, Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Erastus and Quartus (who join in the greeting).
Also, in the entire remainder of Paul's writings, he refers to only 6 other women: Chloe (1 Cor 1:11), Euodia and Syntyche (Phil 4:2), Nympha (Col 4:15), Apphia (Philem) and Claudia (2 Tim 4:21) (he also refers again to Priscilla, who is the same person as Prisca, in 1 Cor 16:19 and 2 Tim 4:19). So in his entire writings, he refers to only 17 women (2 of whom are unnamed). By comparison, he names 55 men.
Probably it's all of these. You'd expect the world's most successful religion (2.4 billion and counting!) to have something going for it.
The 'weajoo' thing is pretty funny. It may be more common than you think. Arguably Japanese Westaboos would be the direct inverse, given the influence of Jews on Western popular culture. You have to admit, Hollywood and the music industry produced a lot of quality art and even more really well-produced, fun pulp trash from 1930-2000 or so.
The Roman MGTOW (MGTOVV?) thing is even funnier. You wonder if they were in a similar situation as we were now and there's a part of the story we're not seeing because it didn't make current pagan or later Christian chroniclers look good. How much property did the ladies walk off with if divorced?
I know the politics make this hard in the Bay Area, but I could see the Christians being genuinely nicer. Most of the criticism of 'Christians not practicing the teachings of Christ' revolves around (a) areas like homosexuality or abortion where the religion bans it or (b) late 20th/early 21st century American political struggles where Christians lean right and oppose things like a stronger welfare state. But the few Christians I knew in my blue part of the country were the nicest people around.
But compared to might-makes-right Greco-Roman paganism, where as you say raping your slaves was OK, women were property, and the standard thing was to run away from the dying in a plague? As you point out, even rehydrating plague victims could have caused a huge difference in survival with 2nd-century medicine. Yeah, I could see Christianity getting converts and being seen as genuinely divinely inspired. Back in the colonization of the Americas pretty much the only brake on the mass murder of Indians in Latin America was the Catholic Church--and there are plenty of obvious Indian descendants in Latin America and very few in former English America.
Again, with something as insanely successful as Christianity, it's not just one thing.
I notice you did not even consider the explanation "The Holy Spirit was with the early Christians. At some point Christianity lost its way and the Holy Spirit left the churches". I genuinely updated toward this hypothesis based on your review, though I am not currently a Christian.
The religion has more followers than ever. I don't know if they have the Holy Spirit, but they have the Mandate of Heaven (outside its original use of course).
The term you're looking for is "Great Apostasy".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy
I mentioned it elsewhere, but I think this discussion really suffers without a comparison to other religions of the era. I tried to find some data, but it is maddeningly hard to find estimates of the number of practicing Mithraists or devotees of the Cult of Isis from the same period, much less estimates that were generated by a similar procedure Stark uses to generate his estimates of the Christian population. So, all of the below should be taken with a giant grain of salt. But here's what I've managed to find:
At least one scholar, Martin H. Luther, has estimated a similar number of Mithraists and Christians at the beginning of the 4th Century, at ~50,000 each. Now, that is a much smaller estimate than Stark has for early Christians, so I'd be interested to understand what leads to these divergences--would Stark's methods also lead to a larger number of Mithraists? Why or why not?
I also checked Wikipedia for a list of famous Mithraea, and early Christian churches (before 400). They list about 60 notable Mithraea, and 63 Church buildings from the 1st-4th centuries...pretty similar. So at a first guess, especially given there's likely a higher rate of survival of Church buildings, I think similar numbers of followers makes sense.
If that's right, I think a lot of the explanations for the success of Christianity lose their bite: if various Hellenistic mystery religions were equally successful up to Constantine, it would move me a lot in the direction that a big part of Christianity's special sauce was its adoption by Constantine. It's true that Julian promoted Mithraism, so it's not a full explanation, but you could imagine a first mover effect here, or just the contingency of Julian dying and his successors mostly retvrning to Christianity.
Of course, all of the above is a big "if", but I think these discussions should keep in mind that some of the explanations offered may not actually distinguish Christiniaty from other, equally successful, Roman-era religions.
Maybe the best book on the Cult of Isis is Witt's "Isis in the Graeco-Roman World".
https://books.google.com/books/about/Isis_in_the_Graeco_Roman_World.html?id=b5XXAAAAMAAJ
Not sure if it has any estimates of number of followers.
Thanks for the recommendation! I took a quick skim and didn't see any estimates, but may try read the book anyway. This whole discussion has really whetted my appetite to dive into the mystery religions!
Hi Scott!
Thanks for the very interesting post! Christianity after Constantine is certainly different than the early years. Reminds me of Durant's assessment that combining Christianity with government is the hardest thing in the world. (e.g., How do you love and forgive a criminal and also put him in jail?)
What good is it to profit the world if you lose your soul? Perhaps Christianity lost its soul when it won the world, so to speak.
Have a great day!
Kind regards,
David
I don’t think it’s so hard empirically; as someone commented elsewhere here Islam is very similar in its moral outlook to fire-and-brimstone Christianity and it’s managed to have decent statecraft built in from the very start. Carrot-and-stick approach: delegate the Carrot to heaven, implement the stick yourself. You could argue it’s piggybacking off of Constantine’s church there…
Hi noumena!
Sorry, I meant to say "Jesus's teaching" instead of "Christianity". You're right that there are ways for Christianity to govern.
But how can a government follow teachings like "give to all who ask", "do not resist an evildoer, if anyone strikes you on one check turn the other also", "do not judge", "only he who is without sin may cast the first stone", "if your neighbor takes your shirt, give them your cloak as well", and "take up your cross and follow me"?
Have a great night!
Kind regards,
David
Absolutely agree! He's anarchist at his core.
"I’m not complaining or blaming Christians for this - almost nobody is that person! I just wonder what the early Christians had which modern Christians have lost."
Maybe they haven't lost anything. Maybe modern Christians don't seem incredibly virtuous to us because we have all become remarkably good ourselves, and so they don't seem particularly special by comparison.
Sure, not a lot of people would gladly die in a plague for their worst enemy. But I feel most people would be ready to take quite a lot of risks for their family, their friends, and sometimes for complete strangers. We don't feel incredibly virtuous because we have grown accustomed to our very high standards, but compared to ancient pagan Romans who would not hesitate to let their wives and children die alone a horrible death, we are quite heroic indeed (and those early Christians were compared to them, not to us).
Related: quite a few of us moderns are really preoccupied by the welfare of animals, of people living on the other side of the world, of people not existing yet, even sometimes of fictional characters. The pagan Romans were enjoying seeing their neighbors get devoured by lions.
Why such complex explanations? Recruit the women, then you get their children, both male and female. Convert more pagan women. Repeat.
The christian fertility advantage seems to be adequately explained by "stealing" of daughters from pagans.
I think an important context for abortion is infanticide. Worrying about abortion is premature when infanticide is common, which was true until quite recently, even in Christian Europe. Around 1900 there was jury nullification in UK of capital murder charges for infanticide, leading to the creation of the lesser crime of infanticide defined by insanity. This shows something about how common it was even in 1900. I think in fact this was a time of increased prosecution because it had become rare enough to be worth prosecuting.
Infant abandonment still happens even today.
If we do entertain the hypothesis that Christianity was:
1. Unusually appealing to urban educated women, and they are ones that lead converts to any new ideology or cultural norm
2. Unusually harmonizing of sex relations, especially for the sex that is more skeptical of marriage
We can see how the modern versions of it fail.
Wokism is appealing to elite women, but it makes them dislike and disrespect men. Mormonism makes women like men and get excited for marriage, but isn't particularly appealing to urban elites. Mainstream "cultural Christianity" does neither really. Effective Altruism is antinatalist. Right wing "Tradism" scares the (elite) hoes.
The next ideology that does both well is going to own the future — I'm doing my part in manifesting it at https://www.secondperson.dating/
This sounds like a take by teenage me on an atheist forum in 2001, but maybe it's just that a martyr-based religions are awesome when they're actually being persecuted and annoying when they aren't?
~1000 pages into Herodotus. Highly recommend if you haven't read him.
The pre-Christian world was just different. Love in the Christian sense is lacking as a virtue, but these were people (be they Greeks or Persians or Egyptians) who recognized Goodness.
The biggest difference I see is pervasive pessimism. It seems there were no optimists before Christ. To a pagan, the world is not Good, nor is life. Things in the world can be good; to be alive is better than to be dead. But life is full of suffering, and then you will die, and Hades awaits - Hades which took even Achilles.
There's no hope, no escape, and a subtle or not-so-subtle derangement to each of the cultures Herodotus describes, easily visible from a Christian perspective.
Christ redeemed not just our individual souls, but the world itself. The better part of our soul expects the world to be good, and we're incomplete if unable to believe so. Inner peace, joy, contentment, levity, all seem lacking in the world before Christianity.
Chesterton wrote about this pagan pessimism in his book "Orthodoxy":
" To the pagan the small things are as sweet as the small brooks breaking out of the mountain; but the broad things are as bitter as the sea. When the pagan looks at the very core of the cosmos he is struck cold. Behind the gods, who are merely despotic, sit the fates, who are deadly. Nay, the fates are worse than deadly; they are dead. And when rationalists say that the ancient world was more enlightened than the Christian, from their point of view they are right. For when they say "enlightened" they mean darkened with incurable despair. It is profoundly true that the ancient world was more modern than the Christian. The common bond is in the fact that ancients and moderns have both been miserable about existence, about everything, while mediaevals were happy about that at least. I freely grant that the pagans, like the moderns, were only miserable about everything—they were quite jolly about everything else. I concede that the Christians of the Middle Ages were only at peace about everything—they were at war about everything else. But if the question turn on the primary pivot of the cosmos, then there was more cosmic contentment in the narrow and bloody streets of Florence than in the theatre of Athens or the open garden of Epicurus. Giotto lived in a gloomier town than Euripides, but he lived in a gayer universe."
"I’m not making the boring liberal complaint that Christians are hypocritical and evil, although of course many are. I’m making the equally-boring-but-hopefully-less-inflammatory complaint that many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy. "
I think there are two possibilities that suggest themselves in response to this point:
(1) My basic sense is that basic narrative of these past ages is "life is cheap." The casual infanticide, extremely high all-cause mortality, high total fertility, etc. etc. just mean that the good of "being alive" used to be worth a lot less (remember that among your alternatives are living in a chokingly cramped smoky urban cubicle at constant fire risk to enjoy a lifetime of fetching water from public wells) -- and thus the tradeoff implied by self-sacrifice looks different. The notion of the value of human life just looks fundamentally different in premodern than postmodern societies. What one gives up by martyrdom or the opportunity cost of charity just isn't worth as much as it would be in later ages.
One presumes that this is in turn is largely reflective of the level of capital development in a society. One my big takeaways of the review of "Down and Out in Paris and London" (https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-down-and-out-in ) was this idea that even early modern England was beset by roving bands of basically able-bodied men roaming the countryside with no particular opportunities for gainful employment. This seems insane in a kind spherical-cow Say's Law sense of economics ("There are a bunch of resources to be used at low cost just sitting around waiting to be used!") but at some level has to chalk up the fact that labor supply can increase independently of the supply of capital goods to employ it. Presumably this 1900s example also reflects a microcosm of what you get when capital other than land barely even exists, fertility is sky high, and conditions are more-or-less Malthusian. Far more humans than productive uses for humans, so you invent uses like "invade Gaul" or other long expeditionary campaigns with sky high mortality to fetch resources to each Malthusian constraints, or bloodsports for entertainment.
(2) One suspects that the typical-normie viewpoint may have no been too conceptually dissimilar as far as commitment to self-interest, but absolute belief in the supernatural and a theistic outlook were probably a lot more central to the way people lived their lives in early Roman time than they are today. This may not be totally dispositive but it's probably a lot easier to coalesce around diktats of self-sacrifice if you really truly believe in your core that God exists and wants to do that, in exchange for which you'll receive an eternal super awesome afterlife instead of the grubby nasty/brutish/short combination that characterizes pagan Rome.
This is interesting but it feels like it's missing a huge part of the puzzle to not talk about other religions with hundreds of millions of adherents. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.
To some extent once you start looking at how many giant religions there are maybe there's nothing left to explain about Christianity in particular. Maybe it's just a default state for most people to believe in the popular large religion near them, and these just gradually shift with the centuries?
Christianity still stands out. 31% of the world is Christian, compared to 25% Muslims, 15% Hindus, 7% Buddhists, and 7% every other religion. Only Islam is close to Christianity's numbers, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Islam is also extremely close to Christianity in terms of theology, history, and philosophical outlook. Proselytizing monotheism is just a different beast than all the other religions. Why that is the case is a real puzzle, and considering how similar Islam and Christianity are (arguably Islam is not so much a separate religion as it is the most successful Christian heresy) the solution is likely similar in both cases.
I agree. If Mormonism can be considered part of Christianity then Islam can be too.
I imagine that when Christianity was a minority religion, the message of love was attractive to people who were already loving by nature. Later, when it became mandatory, there was no more selection on this. Which is why the early Christians were more loving on average than the modern ones.
These days, Christianity is no longer mandatory, but is still associated with some institutional power, and most people are Christians simply because their parents were. So again, very little selection.
This is not to say that Christianity did not increase the amount of love in the world! If the hypothesis of the book is correct, it did so by helping to spread the genes of the naturally loving people.
Also, I think it helps a lot to have places where loving people naturally meet each other. To use a game theory analogy, you may talk a lot about the theory of being "superrational" and cooperating in the Prisoner's Dilemma... but the actual profit comes from interacting with other people who cooperate, too. Christianity made the naturally loving people see each other more, so they benefited more from each other.
"Also, talk about Jesus is cheap, but I still don’t understand how they managed to be so virtuous and loving, in a way that so few modern Christians (even the ones who really believe in Jesus) are."
I don't see why they would have to be endlessly virtuous and loving. They'd just have to be slightly better friends to pagans than pagans were to each other, and slightly better friends to each other than to pagans. That doesn't sound too unlikely for followers of a religion that was far more inclined than its rivals to warn people they will be judged according to virtue ethics in the hereafter.
And I have come across comments from people who have passed between sin-and-hellfire and woke communities that the former were decidedly kinder to their own adherents, let alone non-adherents, than the woke.
“Some people just have a tendency towards self-sacrifice. I know many effective altruists who, for example, deliberately let themselves be infected with malaria to help speed vaccine research.”
This is a really unconvincing analogy because 1) getting malaria under these extremely safe and controlled conditions is not nearly as bad as being tortured to death, and 2) let’s not start pretending participating in clinical trials is an EA thing just because the EAs blog about it. 99%+ of people who participate in clinical trials are not EAs and are primarily motivated by money, I should know, I was/am one.
I think you made a mistake by reading Stark in the wrong order.
He's written three books on this subject (with a few side books adjacent to the subject)
- 1997 The Rise of Christianity (what you read)
- 2006 Cities of God: The Real Story of how Christianity became an Urban Movement and Conquered Rome
- 2011 The Triumph of Christianity: How the Jesus Movement became the world's largest religion
The 2006 book is something of a response to criticisms, like yours, of the 1997 book. It's primarily a book of cliometrics, first a discussion of what can be measured and how, and the an application of these measurements to various theses and hypotheses as to what drove Christianity to expand in Rome.
The 2011 book expands the story to cover a little of Rome, and a lot more of the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages expansion.
Ultimately what you'll get from all three books, I think, depends on what you consider to be "religion" and "Christianity". Stark, although he occasionally heads off into the spiritual territory, *mostly* considers religion generally and Christianity specifically, as a set of cultural practices rather than as a specific set of woo-woo claims about the world. So the question he's interested in is not so much "why did <the trinity>/<christ come to earth to save us>/<etc>" take over the world as "why did a particular set of social practices take over the world". You always have to bear that in mind when you read his, and other claims.
The claims "woke is christianity 'amplified' for the 21st Century" and "woke is gnosticism in new clothes" are both true (IMHO) but they are true about somewhat different aspects of woke, and you miss the point of the claim in both cases if you obsess over the literal content of Christianity (or various earlier gnosticisms) rather than seeing the analogies.
Likewise you can only see the point Stark is trying to make in the first book if you're able to understand just how different 21st C America is to 0th C Rome. Plenty of people are not! (And you're not helping yourself in this task if your view of history is as a set of factoids to be mined so as to "prove" whatever is your current political thesis.) If the only way you can understand gender relations, or master-servant relations is via disapproval of whatever they did that does not match <predictably obvious modern claim> then you're not going to get any of this. You have to go into the analysis with your questions of interest being "how did the system work" not "what can I find to disapprove of in the system".
Regarding the question of whether Republicans brought birth control and abortion as wedges issues for Evangelical Christians, my father was a fundamentalist preacher and he never said the words "abortion, birth control, homosexual" etc. either privately or from the pulpit. It wasn't until the Republicans discovered the virtue signaling power of these issues that they became the driving force of conservative political conversion. He died a raging Fox news Republican and my extended family perpetuate his example.
Scott badly needs to read Gibbon as a corrective to this absurd “early Christians were morally perfect” idea. And how can a person know anything about the Middle Ages or the wars of religion and conclude that Christianity eliminated cruelty? It isn’t even a matter of comparing the Christian ideal to pagan actuality, because plenty of fervent christians believed that their ideal was persecution and painful death for all heretics. Not obvious that publicly burning someone at the stake is less cruel than public death by wild animal.
Gibbons is less useful now for his historical accuracy than as a snapshot of the anticlericalism that was present among the 18th and 19th century Whigs/liberals of Europe. And I suppose it might also tell us something about the anticlericalism that pervades today's left.
>And how can a person know anything about the Middle Ages or the wars of religion and conclude that Christianity eliminated cruelty?
Scott never said Christianity eliminated cruelty. In fact, he asks why modern Christians don't seem as virtuous as the early Christians. Also, the Middle Ages and the wars of religion are not in the time period being discussed in the book/review. The latter is closer to our time by magnitudes.
Does it really need to be pointed out that that was much later? Moral shifts in groups (of whatever kind) over hundreds of years are kind of to be expected. Also in groups that started out revolutionary/subversive and later became entwined with state power. Conflating the Christians of the 1st & 17th centuries is absurd.
Gibbon's words have been taken as sacrosanct for the last three centuries. Its actually great that modern works are pushing back against Gibbon and his ilk who were more motivated by their own personal biases and ignorance(see their treatment of the Eastern Roman Empire) than any serious evidence.
Gibbon is partisan, but that's an attribute of the age he was born into - the Enlightenment period really did like to flatter itself that it was the Age of Reason and the renewal of rational thought. His anti-Christianity was really anti-Catholicism, he was very much in the ROMAN Catholicism camp of the Enlightenment so his view of the early Christian ages was "all popes and monks, so bad; new Protestant like us good version Christianity", though he wasn't too enamoured of conventional Protestantism much, either. I think he was inclined towards Deism, if anything, but wanted to keep the moral/ethical teachings after disentangling them from the supernatural in Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Gibbon
"Gibbon's apparent antagonism to Christian doctrine spilled over into the Jewish faith, leading to charges of anti-Semitism. For example, he wrote:
'From the reign of Nero to that of Antoninus Pius, the Jews discovered a fierce impatience of the dominion of Rome, which repeatedly broke out in the most furious massacres and insurrections. Humanity is shocked at the recital of the horrid cruelties which they committed in the cities of Egypt, of Cyprus, and of Cyrene, where they dwelt in treacherous friendship with the unsuspecting natives; and we are tempted to applaud the severe retaliation which was exercised by the arms of legions against a race of fanatics, whose dire and credulous superstition seemed to render them the implacable enemies not only of the Roman government, but also of mankind'.
Gibbon is considered to be a son of the Enlightenment and this is reflected in his famous verdict on the history of the Middle Ages: "I have described the triumph of barbarism and religion." Politically, he rejected the radical egalitarian movements of the time, notably the American and French Revolutions, and dismissed overly rationalistic applications of the rights of man."
So, do you want us to believe that Gibbon also taught us about the corrective view of Judaism?
I think that this is a set of speculative ideas that have no foundation in empirical fact. Not that I'm saying they are wrong, but that we have no real facts to speculate over. I've been trying to run down the claim that Christians made up 10% (or any specific percent) of the Roman Empire at any point in time, and all I can find are estimates based on a very small series of letters written at the time which cite no metrics at all.
My conclusion is that we just don't know how many Christians there were in the world prior to the keeping of baptismal records in the Middle Ages. Prior to that, the assumption by contemporary sources seems to have been that if a ruler converted, then all their subjects should be counted as having converted as well. This seems to have been the prevailing assumption well into the Reformation. It may have been largely true (people defined their religious identity differently back then), but we just don't know.
As for the Roman Empire? Forget it, any number at all is spitting in the dark. No matter how sophisticated a mathematical model may be, if it's based on a guess, then the model is just a sophisticated guess. Of course it goes without saying that the exact same considerations apply to the number of pagans at the time, or the pagan/Xian ratio at any point.
We may never know if Christianity grew as a result of simple incremental growth, a series of semi-defined waves, as as a result of a small number of mass conversions.
https://open.substack.com/pub/thedailymemes/p/no-time-for-words?r=kfs8f&selection=3841a6df-fc34-4438-8695-b9d9b68e4480&utm_campaign=post-share-selection&utm_medium=web
The "Christianity spread because early Christians were really nice" hypothesis doesn't jive with the existence of other really nice-but-small groups. My wife's family is Greek, and they're the most bizarrely nice people I know. But she tells me that that's just a cultural norm, and everyone in Greece is like that. If that's even half true, then why is modern Greece a small/poor country and not a sprawling love-fueled empire? The same could be asked of any notably welcoming culture, like various small Polynesian nations. If anything, size/influence seems to be anticorrelated with niceness at the level of nation-states.
Try reading Tom Holland. Less scholarly history but more relevant on the “why Christianity?” question.
https://a.co/d/azxF6U1
Is Mormon growth comparable to early Christian growth given that the population in general was expanding so much more in the 19th/20th centuries? I keep going back and forth.
Regarding the “love wins” hypothesis — I think it’s interesting that the precipitous decline in Christianity in the US occurred hand-in-hand with the rise of the LGBTQ movement. Up to that point, being a Christian was still the morally correct and upstanding thing to do in the popular imagination. Rebelling against that typically came with a transgressive tint.
In retrospect, perhaps the hippies’ even more fanatically pro-love message essentially outflanked Christianity on that front, which laid the foundation for the liberal progressive movement. In response, Christianity has leaned into the masculine, Old-Testament aspects of itself as a counter. If you can’t be the capital-L Love movement anymore, you have to be the Deus Vult movement.
One problem with buying into the "Christians were just morally perfect" theory is that virtually every literary source we have from the ancient world was transmitted to us by Christians copying manuscripts. Obviously the Christian authors can be expected to have a pro-Christian bias, but so can the manuscript-copying monks, in their selectionof what texts to copy. Do you think it's an accident that Emperor Julian's flattery of Christians came down to us while 99.99% of his other letters didn't?
The other problem with the theory, as Scott noted, is that Christians today are notably nowhere close to morally perfect. They don't even seem morally superior to their non-Christian friends, relatives, and neighbors in Western societies. Even on the moral values that Christians stress much more than non-Christians, like marital fidelity, the religious barely beat the non-religious: https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-religiosity-protect-against-infidelity
> When men did have sex with women, it was usually oral or anal sex, specifically to avoid procreation.
This is about as plausible as the somewhat older idea that Spartan mothers were happy to hear that their sons had died in combat, or the much newer idea that, when a man rapes a woman, that's not because he finds the woman sexually desirable.
> Meanwhile, Christian woman had relatively high status, sometimes rising to the position of deacon within a church. Christian men were ordered to treat their wives kindly, were prohibited from cheating on them, and mostly could not divorce. Christianity, unlike paganism, did not especially pressure widows to remarry (important since a remarrying widow lost all her property to her new husband). Christian women were only a third as likely as Roman women to be married off before age 13. Women noticed all these benefits and flocked to Christianity.
What benefits? Most of those things are easily predicted by the fact that 84% of Christians are female. (Going by the tunic count.) If there are no men who could be a deacon, you're going to see female deacons. If there are no men who could be a husband, you're not going to see marriages, of widows or of nubile girls.
The commandments not to beat or cheat on your wife are exceptional; they are the opposite of what the gender ratio would predict. But while you could count those as benefits, they're completely moot if you can't marry at all. (And equally moot if you solve that problem by marrying a pagan who isn't subject to them.)
This just sounds like an attempt to label problems as benefits.
> The cities buzzed with flies, mosquitos, and other insects. It would be eighteen hundred years before anyone invented germ theory.
From wikipedia:
> The Roman statesman Marcus Terentius Varro (116–27 BC) wrote, in his Rerum rusticarum libri III (Three Books on Agriculture, 36 BC): "Precautions must also be taken in the neighborhood of swamps... because there are bred certain minute creatures which cannot be seen by the eyes, which float in the air and enter the body through the mouth and nose and there cause serious diseases."
> In his poem, De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things, c. 56 BC), the Roman poet Lucretius (c. 99 BC – c. 55 BC) stated that the world contained various "seeds", some of which could sicken a person if they were inhaled or ingested.
> At its absolute most touchy-feely, paganism might posit a “special relationship” between a god and a city, like Athena and Athens. But even this maxxed out at the sort of relationship between a shopkeeper and a favorite recurring customer who he always remembered to greet by name.
Might? That was _always_ done. Athena is named after Athens, but the connection between Hera and Argos is just as close. Melqart is the god of Tyre. Every Mesopotamian god lives in a particular Mesopotamian city, and the normal written form of that city's name is "the place of the god XX", so that Babylon is more likely to be written as "the place of the god Marduk" than as "Babilli".
These cities maintained expensive statues of their gods and a major military-political objective was to capture those statues or secure their return, like legion standards for the Romans.
> many Christians are perfectly decent people, upstanding citizens - but don’t really seem like the type who would gladly die in a plague just so they could help nurse their worst enemy.
I don't know... we actually just had a plague, and in fact millions of sick people were nursed intensively at great expense to society and at great personal risk to the people who cared for them. This sounds a lot more like the early Christian plague response than the pagan Roman plague response as described above. True, during the height of Covid, there were people argued that, e.g., sick anti-vaxxers shouldn't get treatment, but for the most part the more Christian response prevailed.
Many of the doctors and nurses and friends and family members who cared for Covid patients were not professing Christians; also, many of them were. But Christian values have so permeated our society that almost everyone, Christians and non-Christians alike, took for granted that this was the right thing to do.
Part of the reason why Christianity doesn't seem as compelling to a lot of people today is probably just that certain Christian attitudes have become so deeply ingrained in our culture that they no longer seem remarkable.
Great review! I hope you sent it to Stark (is he still alive? ). Everything I've read by him was worth reading, even when it was wrong-- you will appreciate that statement. It is important to note that he is a sociology professor, a group we economists scoff at-- but here we have a sociologist who's a first rate scholar and can compete with economists.
I've reacted to many of your earlier Christianity-adjacent posts with "right or wrong, this doesn't even demonstrate successful modeling of how Christians think-- it wouldn't pass the intellectual Turing Test". This post, on the other hand, passes that test with flying colors. Well done and thanks for the thoughtful investigation!
In particular, it hadn't occurred to me to be interested in why Christian missionaries were so successful in the early Middle Ages-- I'd assumed it was some combination of True Content plus post-1500-style "Christians are the ones with all the cool new stuff". But the second explanation seems weak-- what cool new stuff, anyway?-- and the first explanation, well, no matter what your priors it doesn't explain why the Islamic world was so much more resistant. Something something institution strength, maybe? Or maybe some refinement of the theses about cities and classes, since the Middle East was decently urbanized like the Mediterranean world during this period while Northern Europe wasn't.
The funniest secret about Christianity that I think is patently obvious when you read the Gospels after having learned more about spirituality is that it was all about non-duality / spiritual awakening from the start lol, and gradually everyone interpreted the obvious parables to be some literal description of an anthropomorphic entity.
> Early Christianity was primarily an urban and upper-class movement (does this surprise you?)
Yes: https://acoup.blog/2019/09/07/new-acquisitions-class-status-and-the-early-church/ This is at best "debated". The bit about "disproportionally female" seems to be true, though.
My common-sense objection to early Christianity being upper class: in the years of NERON CAESAR THE BEAST 666, but also many other years, Christians were martyred in the arenas as you said. Would elites watch some of their own being killed in front of the common people? Even if it's punishing defecting elites, you don't want the plebs to get too excited about seeing members of the elite class dying in horrible ways, or it might give them ideas. Putting lower-class undesirables in the arena as a reminder to everyone else that you can cheer today, but you could be next if you cause trouble, that's a much more effective policy.
EDIT: And because we haven't had our fill of nominative determinism yet, one of the sources cited on early Christianity is called Meeks.
At the time of Domitian (reign 81-96) there were members of the royal family who had converted to Christianity (which infuriated the Emperor).
> he turned his attention to the greatest cult of all and wrote The Rise Of Christianity
Wow! I'm a bit shocked to hear you say that. Look, the word "cult" has a technical meaning and a folk meaning. I don't think Christianity meets the technical definition, but that's not important right now. What's important is that "you're in a cult" is generally used an insult. It looks like you just insulted billions of people. I would prefer to see more tact.
Tgere ist in fact not "a technical meaning"of "cult". There's a scene of people who are against cults and like to use definitions with lists of traits like "tRies to separate members from their families" but to call these "technical" is to ignore that these lists vary and contradict eachother, and the variations are frequently transparently politically motivated.
The sctual scholars of religion (like Rodney Stark) have abandoned the term for the exact reason you describe, and prefer to say they study "New Religious Movements (NRMs).
And the ""folk meaning"is not as substantially insulting as you claim. Both groups/tribes Scott is a member of, LessWrong rationalists and Effective Altruists, have been called "cults" for pejorative purposes, and both have played with, rather than furiously denied, that moniker. Many startups openly call themselves, and/or aspire to being called by others, "cults".
Yes it would have been more precise if Scott had called Early Christianity as a New Religious Movement, but the insult level is what you brought to it. Maybe because you give too much credence to those anti-cult people and their lists of cult traits, because those literally define "cults" as Problematic.
Probably had something to do with institutional capacity built up by Christians? Seem to have been Relatively better at it than the primary religions
Organised religion with decent institutional capacity is extremely effective.
IMO one of the reasons Hindus haven’t converted is the existence of some institutional capacity despite having many of the same tendencies of Romes primary religion.
Hi Scott. I'm a long time reader and love your work, but I'm afraid I think this is a sloppy post.
You talk about people like video game characters who have XML tags in their heads like <religion>Christian</religion>. And you're asking the question, why at some point in time did everyone switch from <religion>Pagan</religion> to <religion>Christian</religion>? This is exactly how it works in a video game, but exactly how it doesn't work in reality.
If instead you think from the point of view of behaviour (in real life people's qualities exist as properties of behaviour, not as XML tags), you can ask: why did Christian behaviours catch on? Where Christian behaviours would include: calling yourself Christian; being baptised; following such and such rules.
If you ask the question this way it seems easier (we don't need to explain any "conversions" in a strong sense, only lots of small behaviours). I think the answer is just, people liked them and they caught on. In the same way that supporting Man Utd caught on.
Man Utd behaviours would include: watching games, saying "I support Man Utd", complaining about the Glazers). We don't analyse how many new Man Utd supporters each converts, or whether supporting Man Utd contains some deep key to the universe that would benefit everyone. It just makes sense to us that these behaviours go together, that a few people had fun doing them, and then more jumped on the bandwagon.
"What's so good about Christianity?" might be an interesting question, or it might already have been done to death. A more specific question about a particular pattern of Christian behaviour (like "What's so good about honesty?") might be better, and then the piece can have a moral and give advice as well.
As Zur Luria already said, Islam spread much faster, within one generation. This makes nonsense of the exponential growth idea. But it's still easy to explain behaviourally -- if someone invades your country and says "this is a Muslim country now. Say the Shahada if you want to become a Muslim citizen" most people will say the Shahada, even if it's not a forced conversion in a strong sense.
Also I think you're confusing yourself by relying on the stereotype of religious people as weird extremists:
>Imagine taking a time machine to the year 2300 AD, and everyone is Scientologist. The United States is >99% Scientologist. So is Latin America and most of Europe. The Middle East follows some heretical pseudo-Scientology that thinks L Ron Hubbard was a great prophet, but maybe not the greatest prophet.
This makes it sound like everyone in the world has been replaced by weird aliens. Because in real life Scientologists are weird. But if you just think of them as normal people like you and me (who sometimes behave in a way we'd call religious) your thought experiment doesn't do anything.
In fact without the stereotype you wouldn't even be able to come up with such a misleading thought experiment. So you're falling victim to your words/stereotypes, instead of letting the meaning choose the word.
It's generally true that birth and death rates were almost evenly balanced almost everywhere until around the 18th century. Populations sometimes declined due to climate disasters like the volcanic winter of the 6th century or to lethal pandemics like the Black Death. Populations only expanded when new and fertile lands could be brought under cultivation or innovation increased agricultural yield.
A minor quibble: It's unlikely that the Christian population was any where near forty million in 400AD. That's only a few years after Theodosios I made Christianity the official religion of the Empire and conversion was far from instantaneous-- there were still Pagans, in Constantinople and other cities, during the reign of Justinian over a century later. The bulk of the population was rural, not urban (true everywhere until the 20th century) and Christianity was an urban religion. Conversion of the countryside proceeded slowly and really only took off during the early Middle Ages after the collapse of cities when St. Benedict and his successors (including in the still Roman East) began founding remote monasteries. The very word "paganus" originally meant a country dweller, and English "heathen" has similar connections.
> Also, I regret to say I fell for the liberal meme that Republicans tricked Christians into being anti-abortion in 1960, and previous generations of Christian had thought abortion was fine.
The more accurate statement is that, prior to ~1975, Catholics were opposed to abortion (thus, "the Catholic issue"), but Protestants (i.e. the majority of American Christians) were pro-choice. Clinton's "safe, legal, and rare" would likely have resonated well with them, and their Overton Window allowed a range of views on the topic.
For example, the Southern Baptist Convention's official stance in 1976 was
> WHEREAS, The practice of abortion for selfish non-therapeutic reasons want-only destroys fetal life, dulls our society's moral sensitivity, and leads to a cheapening of all human life, and
> ...
> Be it further RESOLVED, that we also affirm our conviction about the limited role of government in dealing with matters relating to abortion, and support the right of expectant mothers to the full range of medical services and personal counseling for the preservation of life and health.
Around this time, the wording starts to emphasize things like "conditions which encourage many people to turn to abortion as a means of birth control". Soon that "limited role" morphed from 1971's
> allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother
into 1981's
> constitutional amendment which will prohibit abortions except to save the physical life of the mother, and that we also support and will work for legislation which will prohibit the practice of infanticide.
I see two issues with the final hypothesis;
First, Early Christians ceased to be unflinchingly ethical pacifists very quickly, both locally and in total. 150 years after the death of Jesus they were already willing and able to persecute the Pagans (and each other) with violence matching their previous persecution, but crucially, without actually stopping their charity and community building efforts.
The trick it seems was not that Christians weaponized extreme, pacifistic altruism, but that they knew how to blend apparent pacifism and altruism with decisive violence, and rebrand said violence as altruism as well. Compare; the Pagan Romans gave barely the flimsiest justification for persecuting Christians, it was perfectly obvious to everybody that Pagans wanted to persecute someone, and Christians were an easy target (at first). But the moment Christians started persecute Pagans right back, it was immediately framed as venerable act, internally and externally. The difference, I think, was that Pagan violence (be it Roman, but also "barbarian") was nakedly cynical (we do it because we can!) while Christian violence was either genuinely pious or well disguised (we do it because GOD says so!).
The second reason, is that the rise of Islam, and to some degree most other major religions needed little to no charity, empathy or ethical pacifism. Islam took up the sword instantly withing Mohammad's lifetime, and pretty much never stopped. Still, managed to be as, if not more effective than Christianity. If virtuous ethics were the reason behind the success of Christianity, then this had to be a case of improbable luck, since conquest through pious violence backed with solipsistic ethics seems to be just as effective, and even Christianity turned to it the moment they could (or sometimes ahead of time, jumping the gladius as it were.)
Reading this in retrospect, I wonder how much the Roman population sustained itself at replacement via slave-buying. We know that Roman republican (and early Imperial) generals would go to war as a for-profit enterprise, stealing the treasury of the countries they conquered and selling their captives as slaves, and we know that they continued selling the people they defeated in war as slaves.
Benjamin Jacobs of the Wittenberg to Westphalia podcast thinks this is one of the major theories of the nature of the Roman economy and the fall of Rome - the theory is that like the Caribbean later, plantations were inhumane and relied on constant imports of new slaves to replace the old ones who kept dying, and that when Rome stopped winning so many wars in the third century crisis the economy failed.
The thing is, we know that the population peak is somewhere around 200, and the Third Century Crisis is 235-284 by the narrow definition. And we also know that the Roman writers of the late Republic and early Empire are constantly complaining about how Romans are being pushed off the land and put out of work by freedmen. So the theory occurs to me that possibly the Roman pagans are only sustaining themselves at 1.4 live kids per family, and they're making up for it with slaves taken in war who mostly die but sometimes become freedmen and thereby Roman citizens, and by this method of forced immigration maintaining themselves at population equilibrium - until they stop winning...