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The Heartbeat Podcast with Claire Lew

from Joel Gascoigne [alt+shift+b] in programming

I recently the pleasure of being interviewed on the Heartbeat Podcast by Claire Lew. Listen above, and check out the full transcript.
17th Jan 2019

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The CSS Working Group resolved to use cursor: pointer for buttons and other clickable form controls in the new appearance: base styles. That happened on October 21, but I posted about it yesterday and, uh, people have feelings about cursors. I wrote about buttons and cursors back in 2022, when a post titled "Buttons shouldn't have a hand cursor" was making the rounds. I admitted I didn't have a strong opinion either way, then argued that not using the hand cursor had become the new anti-pattern anyway. The web isn't an operating system, and people expect clickable things to show a hand. The issue is Cursors For Base Appearance in CSS Forms Level 1. The group adopted the rules from this comment, and the part that's triggering half the Web is: select, option, input[type=checkbox], input[type=radio], button, input[type=button], input[type=submit], input[type=reset], input[type=color], input[type=image], ::file-selector-button { cursor: pointer; } It seems like we have a tabs vs. spaces sort of debate. Again. Nicole Sullivan pulled cursor data from a bunch of design systems and, in September, 27 of the 33 systems that set a cursor used pointer. After she added more systems, it was closer to a 50/50 split. Elika Etemad made the usability case in the meeting. Per the minutes, she said the hand "makes it clear, as soon as you're hovering an interactive control, you're supposed to click on it," and called it a "usability benefit even if not historically done on some platforms." "But the hand means it's a link" Haz had an interesting reaction: The debate is over, and evil has won. His point is that he can't tell whether ⌘-clicking something will open it in a new window anymore. He feels more confident clicking a button when he knows it won't change the URL, like when it just opens a popover or a panel. He's not wrong about that.* I replied that I've been on team evil since 2022 (albeit without a strong opinion, just following what users seem to expect). Touch screens don't have a cursor at all, and on desktop, browsers show a link's URL in the corner when you hover it. That's some type of hint, at least. Haz pushed back that he'd have to watch the bottom-left corner with his peripheral vision, which is fair. He also said he never cared which cursor buttons got, he just wanted links to have their own. I can appreciate that. "But desktop apps don't do it!" Jacob Paris liked the standard cursor on buttons because it makes web apps feel more like desktop apps than websites. My opinion hasn't changed, though. People have already learned that a hand cursor means clickable on the Web. It's by no means mandatory, but it's familiar and satisfying, so it stuck. Either way, nothing changes today. The resolution only covers appearance: base, which browsers haven't shipped yet. Buttons and selects still use appearance: auto, and their cursor is still default. If your CSS reset, design system, or web components already set cursor: pointer on buttons, keep it. When appearance: base ships, controls that opt in will get the same cursors by default. But remember, these are only defaults! You can still add whatever cursor you want to whatever element you want. Nobody's gonna stop you. In 2022, I said I'd keep changing the cursor on buttons until there's a good reason to stop. In 2026, I still haven't found one…and neither has the CSS Working Group. *Thinking about this more, if 50% of design systems opted to add cursor: pointer to buttons already, isn't this already a moot argument? **In general, I think the Web should be more personal and expressive so who even cares about a default? This is especially true for personal and fun sites. Just don't go too crazy, especially when it affects accessibility and the overall user experience.

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